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2nd engineer unlimited ticket equivalent in yachting
Ambroise
Posted: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 12:33 PM
Joined: 17/07/2012
Posts: 3


Hi, So first of all, I did read the MGN156 and search for information on the forum. However, I am still in doubt about the equivalent of my 2nd engineer unlimited ticket (III/2). It seems that I can obtain a Y1 with 6 month yachting experience and a MCA oral. What I would like to know is can I work as chief engineer when the MCA ask for a Y2 or a C/Eng reg III/3 ? Thanks for your help, Ambroise
penfold
Posted: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:18 AM
Joined: 03/05/2010
Posts: 4


MCA guidance states that you can be C/E on any vessel with less than 750kW installed power(on the ships particulars anyway; sometimes engines are derated for this purpose). It says this in a table on page 16  of MSN 1767 and the MCA masters guide PDF.

SBC
Posted: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 9:19 AM
Joined: 14/10/2008
Posts: 33


Hi, I hold a CE unlimited (III/3), valid for service on any vessel/any area, propulsion power less than 3000 kW. It will also see me as CE on any yacht up to 3000gt/6000 kW in the Med or Caribbean (less than 150 m from safe heaven), with a good chance of dispensation for the crossing, if sought. Problem is, that the equivalencies in 156 are not always well thought out, particularly on sailing yachts. Still, if you hold a III/2 as 2nd, you do not need a Y1. It should give you the same competences if you get the "large yacht endorsement"
Ambroise
Posted: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:19 AM
Joined: 17/07/2012
Posts: 3


Alright, thanks for your help. So it seems the best for me would be to work as 2nd engineer for at least 6 month, then get my large yacht endorsment. Does anyone here already passed this endorsment ? I believe it consist on a oral test with a MCA surveyor, am I right ?
gio
Posted: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:40 AM
Joined: 07/01/2012
Posts: 13


the easy way for you is, If you hold that 2nd engineer unlimited STCW III/2 you can get from your country C/E up to 3000kW and after on any yacht you will get endorsement C/E up to 3000kW according to the flag. Forget MCA licence try to get your C/E Unlimited STCW III/2.
Chief
Posted: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 2:15 PM
Joined: 02/06/2008
Posts: 342


"gio" is correct. An unlimited 2nd engineer can get a flag state endorsement to sail as chief on any yacht under 3000 tons. It is a flag thing and unless that flag is UK then the MCA has nothing to do with it. Don't waste time or money chasing a yacht limited MCA license when you have a real one already that far exceeds anything the MCA has to offer a yacht engineer.

 

"SBC" might like to think he has an "unlimited" chief engineer's ticket but he doesn't.  A limitation on horsepower is a limitation. Just because the MCA says he can ride a yacht with small horsepower in coastal waters doesn't make it an "unlimited license." Try getting a job on a ship SBC and let us know how far you get.

 

This is one of the problems with the IMO allowing the MCA to use STCW codes for yacht licenses that are so misleading that even license holders don't know what they have, or worse yet, pretend to have something else.

 


gio
Posted: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:30 PM
Joined: 07/01/2012
Posts: 13


"Chief" explained you very well, you are professional seaman and stay as it. Forget MCA courses and tickets. And don't forget that you have also Malta flag, Marshall Island flag, Vanuatu flag, Panama flag...flags of convenience and with your licence you can get endorsement for any of those flag p.s. work on your Unlimited Licence STCW III/3
Ambroise
Posted: Thursday, July 19, 2012 9:03 AM
Joined: 17/07/2012
Posts: 3


Ok, thanks again for your help. So, I just checked with my flagstate regulation (french). According to the text and my previous time spent at sea, I now need 12 months as engineer to obtain my chief under 3000Kw and 21 months to obtain the chief unlimited ticket. That being said, do you think I can obtain an endorsement from flag like Malta or Marshall island, if I want to work as chief engineer on a let's say 2000kW ship ? My point is that I would like to find a job as second engineer on a large yacht, but it seems easier to find a position as sole engineer on smaller ship for a first step in the yachting industry...
SBC
Posted: Thursday, July 19, 2012 9:35 AM
Joined: 14/10/2008
Posts: 33


[Comment edited by moderator]. The unlimited refrers to type of vessel, area of operation and tonnage, and I do think I mentioned the kW limitations. I´m quite aware that within merchant hierarchy, from where you most likely stems as well, the III/3 is counted as second rate - but on "white boats" it is still not a bad ole certificate. You can rage against the MCA and their manning regs, but fact is that these do serve as guidelines for plenty of other flag states, for better or for worse.
gio
Posted: Thursday, July 19, 2012 11:51 AM
Joined: 07/01/2012
Posts: 13


Ambroise stay on your course and keep your STCW licence. In near future according to STCW and IMO all MCA licences will be more limited for sailing area, already today on yacht with LY3 code (means yacht which carrying 12 to 36 pax) captain must have STCW commercial licence as well as Chief Engineer. With your STCW licence you can get any flag endorsement, but that is a process which require your embarkation. MCA must follow regulations from STCW Convention and IMO organization.
Chief
Posted: Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:40 PM
Joined: 02/06/2008
Posts: 342


Sorry SBC, cantankerous has nothing to do with pointing out that stating you hold an unlimited chief engineer license is a fraud. Your statement  that " I hold a CE unlimited (III/3), valid for service on any vessel/any area is patently fraudulent and clearly illustrated in your own claim. You don't have a license "valid for service on any vessel/any area" and no manipulation of the terms or self-deception will change that, if in fact you hold only a III/3 certificate.

 

I suggest you look up the STCW code III/3 and tell us what it describes. One would hope that an "unlimited chief engineer" would at least know what his certicate means.*

 

If your certificate has has a limitation on tonnage (which by definition a yacht certificate does), horsepower, or operating area and is only valid for service on yachts, it is not an unlimited license. Period.

 

And where I come from a III/3 is not "second rate", it simply doesn't exist. III/3 an MCA fabrication created as an entry level certificate restricted to service on yachts and as a revenue generator for training schools and MCA itself. It amazes me that the IMO allowed the MCA to create its own code and to use other legitimate codes in this manner without at least adding a Y suffix or some other means to identify it as a very limited certificate. It is confusing and has almost certainly led many mariners to waste large amounts of money in pursuit of a lesser certificate.

 

* OK, I'll stop being cantankerous and save you the difficulty of finding out what you have:

Engineering - Yacht MCASTCW 95 Regulation Level

AEC      non STCW 95

MEOL    non STCW 95

Y4    A-III/3   Mgm’t/Limited

Y3    A-III/2   Management

Y2   A-III/2   Management

Y1   A-III/2   Management

 


SBC
Posted: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:45 PM
Joined: 14/10/2008
Posts: 33


Sorry, chief, you have in past posts been quick to belittle crew for being "yachties" and for not reading your replies properly. But now you are doing it yourself. Perhaps it is my English, you will have to excuse me, with age I sometimes struggle to keep apart the various languages I have had to learn in order to keep competitive in my working life! Your dislike for yachties is evident. But what you say could easily be mistaken for self-importance. If you read what I wrote, you would notice I do not claim to hold a MCA Y-anything. What I do hold is a IMO STCW-95 Certificate of Competence as "Chief Engineer Officer", from what I consider a very reputable flag state (Denmark) earned by doing first a 4-year apprenticeship as a diesel mechanic afloat on merchant vessels, then studying 2 1/2 year at Copenhagen Technical College and graduating, then serving sufficient time in the Merchant Navy to obtain my cetif¡cate. If you claim that to be fraudulent, I suggest that you shoud study the stcw code yourself a bit. "If your certificate has has a limitation on tonnage (which by definition a yacht certificate does), horsepower, or operating area and is only valid for service on yachts, it is not an unlimited license. Period." Sorry, again, chief, where does the "only valid on yachts" come from? The certificate is, as already mentioned twice, unlimited with regards to type of vessels, tonnage and area of operation. The limitations, as mentioned, are "propulsion power less than 3000 kW" and steam ships. Nothing else. It is valid, with proper flag state equivalency, on ANY vessel of ANY flag state which has signed the STCW code, as amended! "And where I come from a III/3 is not "second rate", it simply doesn't exist. III/3 an MCA fabrication created as an entry level certificate restricted to service on yachts and as a revenue generator for training schools and MCA itself. It amazes me that the IMO allowed the MCA to create its own code and to use other legitimate codes in this manner without at least adding a Y suffix or some other means to identify it as a very limited certificate. It is confusing and has almost certainly led many mariners to waste large amounts of money in pursuit of a lesser certificate." Chief, That amounts to a rant! No need to get delirious! Stcw III/3 for Engineer Officers is an MCA fabrication? Come on, old boy, back to the library, or at least polish those, old reading glasses a bit better. *" OK, I'll stop being cantankerous and save you the difficulty of finding out what you have." Hmmmmmm!
Chief
Posted: Saturday, July 21, 2012 1:23 AM
Joined: 02/06/2008
Posts: 342


You wrote:


"I hold a CE unlimited (III/3), valid for service on any vessel/any area, propulsion power less than 3000 kW."


Which is confirmed by the Danish maritime authority as being a limited license:


http://www.soefartsstyrelsen.dk/SiteCollectionDocuments/SOF/Love/Act%20on%20manning%20of%20ships2.pdf


I repeat, claiming that a III/3 is an unlimited license is a fraudulent claim. Unlimited in any language means "without limitation." There really isn't a lot of room to argue otherwise.


The MCA claim that a Y4 is equivalent to an STCW III/3 is a fraud as well.

SBC
Posted: Saturday, July 21, 2012 12:39 PM
Joined: 14/10/2008
Posts: 33


Dear Chief, Well, I think during our splitting hair over termonolgy we have somewhat lost sight of the purpose of the post.The post was meant as a support to Ambroise, as to show that the MCA (who do hold a lot of sway in this business) is quite happy to issue CeC´s to non-UK holders of merchant certificates, so that they can serve on red ensign yachts, and that he is probably better off staying with his merchant credentials. If you wish to discuss further, chief, this is probably not the forum any more, so do drop me an e mail on yachtingworld@gmail.com
Chief
Posted: Saturday, July 21, 2012 1:24 PM
Joined: 02/06/2008
Posts: 342


"... the MCA ... is quite happy to issue CeC´s to non-UK holders of merchant certificates, so that they can serve on red ensign yachts ..."


Yes, indeed, the MCA will be delighted to sell a CEC to nearly anyone with a real license. But, unless that license holder wishes to sail on a UK flagged vessel, doing so is a waste of money and serves no end other than to help fund the MCA Christmas party.


Flag state is responsible for crew competence and certification. If you desire to work on a red ensign group vessel and you hold a COC from a "White List" maritime authority, the vessel's flag state will evaluate that certificate and determine on an individual basis what position that applicant may serve.







cruser1001
Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2012 6:36 PM
Joined: 23/08/2011
Posts: 6


Hello evrybady. I also have 2nd engineer unlimited ticket (III/2), i am going to obtain a ch.engineer unlimeted(III/3). I know that i can sail without any limitation on ships but what abourt yachts? I saw some vacancies on yachs with requirments: Y3 or III/3 Second Engineer. I can not understand why III/3-second engineer?
ratpack
Posted: Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:13 PM
Joined: 03/03/2011
Posts: 100


I have to agree with Chief - you can't claim an unrestricted license if it has ANY form of limitation, a contradiction in terms. This will rage on for a long time much like the B1B2 visa postings that waste space on this mediocre site
cruser1001
Posted: Monday, October 1, 2012 1:40 PM
Joined: 23/08/2011
Posts: 6


Yestarday i called my frend(he is unlimeted ch.engineer on big vessel) and i asked him which regulation in him ticket III/2 or III/2. There was III/2. Regulation III/3 is ch.engineer until 3000 kw on ship i mean on ship.I campared requerments on most large yachts of MCA and Cayman and i saw that in Cayman it is unnessesary to have ticket ch/eng III/2(unlim) just enough ch/eng III/3(until 3000kw). But it were wrote 2eng(MN) III/3 and 2eng(MN)III/2, i can not understand why 2ENG?