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Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1011
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I would think you would design a garage as a weather deck. You should not be able to flood the interior or hull through the garage if normal doors are closed.
BTW, it's not just yachts that succumb to door failures; it's also a lead cause in sinking large ferries.
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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On these modern , over stylized, wedding cake stacked charter yachts, festooned with countless hull piercings above the waterline , its difficult to visualize what a weather deck is and were the superstructure begins. This disaster represents a direct eye poke to "Innovative Yacht of the Year" types and a tasty future profit stream for DockExpress.
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Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1011
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There is no problem building a weather deck penetration into a superstructure.
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Exactly, door failures are a major cause of sinking of all vessels, as it can lead to free surface effect. Free surface effect does not need to occur in all watertight compartments to effect the stability of a vessel. All we have to do is remember the Herald of Free Enterprise.
I am not an expert in ship stability, but have completed some months of tuition on the subject, and if the YOGI had a catastophic failure of a freeboard hull opening then free surface effect across 25% of her length could cause serious sway and roll resulting in further failures of her systems. Anyway as previously mentioned we wont know what truly happened until the investigation is concluded.
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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Sure doors are troublesome. Ive sailed with transom opening door, garage configurations for 25 years. Since its a known weakness , architects detail the engineering and you as captain or crew are always alert with defense strategies and maintenance cycle. We do know exactly what happened to YOGI...it flooded and sank. Difficult to blame a single issue for the catastrophe. There must have been a chain of deficiencies. When MCA classifies stabilty related issues LY2 what sea state do they rate the yachts at ? What area of operation is LY2 ? Is the French Flag a mimic of MCA ?
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Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 53
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Updated commentary from the builder. Interestingly the word they have gotten so far is that an engine overheated and broke the exhaust bellows and I believe the implication they were trying to express was that they were not buying it because there was a way to shut off incoming water in just such a case.
http://www.boatinternational.com/2012/02/18/head-of-proteksan-turquoise-comments-on-sinking-of-superyacht-yogi/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Head%20of%20Proteksan%20Turquoise%20comments%20on%20sinking%20of%20Yogi&utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter%20-%2020%2F02%2F12
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Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 79
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I have only once shared a yard with a Turkish built Motor yacht. In 2006-07 in Holland in a small out of the way place, a 34ish metre newly launched one came in next to me. During its maiden voyage they had experienced main engine shut downs in 1 metre seas as the raw water intakes for the main engines kept sucking in air. They were having them repositioned in the yard in Holland. Dont need to emphasise the what if scenarios there do we. Also, the boat was covered in rust from up wind metal grinding in the Turkish yard after their paint job was finished. Looked a right mess.
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junior wrote:only time will tell what cased a brand new boat, in moderate weather, to sink. It could be gross crew error, but I doubt it. Fools aren't promoted to yachts that size. The captain was onboard for construction. Vessels are designed to withstand all anticipated damage. I suspect a design flaw. The flooded volume of the watertight bulkhead was too great. The yacht went stern down. I understand that Costa Concoria rolled over because the flooded volume of her punctured compartment was to great
Not to change the subject Junior, but the reason that the Costa Concordia rolled was due to the grounding, not any flooding. After rounding up into the wind as she lost forward way, the captain brought the bow around with the only machinery he had left, the bow thrusters. This brought the vessel closer to the closer to the port, but also along the shore. As the stern grounded first, she slowly rolled onto the shallow shelf. This is why we see the tear in the hull on the exposed side of the hull. Gcaptain has a great analysis of this on their page. Sadly, I doubt they'll do any analysis to shed light on what's happened here to Yogi.
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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Concordia did not have a double skin in the area of the rock penetration. The vessel flooded , sank then settled to the bottom topography. I take this as a lesson of too much flooded volume . The same must be true of Yogi...not enough small watertight comparments
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Joined: 21/02/2012
Posts: 1
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Weekend Sailors?!!!!!
Do you have any idea of what really happened ???
You give your poor opinion and you show your humble experience on Yachts !!
If you was humble you would never post such a comment !!
The Crew of M/Y Yogi was one of the most experienced and qualified Crew with Highest STCW Unlimited Tickets !
The true story will come soon and you will be shamed to blame the Crew
A good advise to you and all Armchairs Crew who post comments blaming the Crew , wait for the final report and you will see that the Yard will be 100 % liable for this incident
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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Well Cappy S...What does Yogi's AIS track tell us about the events leading up to the sinking ?
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Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1011
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Capt. S wrote:Weekend Sailors?!!!!!
Do you have any idea of what really happened ???
You give your poor opinion and you show your humble experience on Yachts !!
If you was humble you would never post such a comment !!
The Crew of M/Y Yogi was one of the most experienced and qualified Crew with Highest STCW Unlimited Tickets !
The true story will come soon and you will be shamed to blame the Crew
A good advise to you and all Armchairs Crew who post comments blaming the Crew , wait for the final report and you will see that the Yard will be 100 % liable for this incident
So did the master of the Concordia, ticket means nothing except you've managed to retain knowledge of fact. It does not speak to how your brain processes that knowledge. The deficiency in the current licensing and selection for command system is that it does not test for that criteria. In fairness to the licensing bodies though, that is a very difficult if not impossible criteria to test for.
If the casualty occurred as the crew stated, then there was a failure to equip the vessel with even rudimentary damage control equipment. A blown exhaust bellows should always be a suspected failure and the vessel equipped to deal with that failure at sea. That is the masters and chief engineers duty to see to before they stood to sea. Obviously that had been operating in service with this lack of damage control kit as well.
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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when things are looking bad and you can no longer control your big rig....what lights do you fly ? I dont see any
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Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 341
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UPDATE*
"Proteksan Turquoise, the Turkish shipyard that constructed the 60 metre yacht, M/Y Yogi, that sank off Skyros, Greece on February 17, wishes to explain that none of their representatives, nor their lawyers, has been able to interview the captain and crew or obtain their written statements to date and the indications are that it will be a further ten days or so before they will meet with them. The only contact that has been made was when the captain made a phone call to the shipyard after he had been rescued and was safely ashore on Skyros.
It is for this reason that Proteksan Turquoise has not been in a position to release any further statements beyond the one sent out on Friday, February 17, as it feels that it is important to have all the facts relating to the incident before commenting further."
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Should the crew have launched the tenders in this scenario? The did have time..
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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You can be sure that the lawyers will choreograph statements to produce a result acceptable to all parties and that two years down the line a final gooblygook statement will be released at the Superyacht Show clarifying events and educating seaman on best practice ......
“ there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know"
"
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Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 59
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Well, I disagree.
Fools are promoted to yachts that size, they just haven't been caught in a serious situation and find themselves over there head..Not that I'm issuing judgement on this particular crew. It does however happen, always has , always will...
And Junior, I'm nor so sure that current builders and inspection authorities do take into account the part time nature of yachtsman into design at the level you suggest. Maybe they should, just put idiot lights everywhere and have the boat call home like a Merc if any alarms are tripped. I actually work in that theater of operation and have been wrestling with this for a decade.
I say black boxes are an essential component to operating a successful yacht-building operation in these times. All systems must be recorded for later use, and a voice recorder on the bridge would be a great idea as well.
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Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 59
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As one poster put it the shipyard alone will be to blame, this seems impossible with a Classed yacht as there are levels of inspectors to blame way before the actual shipyard. we can only build to the approved plan we are given ABS, Loyd's or MCA should be more nervous than the builder, in my opinion.
There are a few things which would constitute builders failure, very few.
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Joined: 21/09/2010
Posts: 196
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Reply to He-Ho
''All systems must be recorded for later use, and a voice recorder on the bridge would be a great idea as well''
Best suggestion so far, we could really make 'reality tv' far more entertaining.
Second reply;
''As one poster put it the shipyard alone will be to blame, this seems impossible with a Classed yacht as there are levels of inspectors to blame way before the actual shipyard''
Rather an ignorant statement and futile attempt to pass the blame.
Every year many, many vessels worldwide other than yachts sink. Are all the world's shipyards to blame?
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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I been on the water for decades and am well aware of the skills yacht captains and crew operate with . If I know this then the designers and builders know. When a yacht runs wild and stampedes across the harbour because of an engine control , operator error, I point my finger at the design and installation of the equipment. When a deckhand falls off a 4 story , awlgrip wet look , wheelhouse when cleaning down... I blame the design, not the young deckhand. Yachts are pleasure toys , operated by seasonal crew ....they must be designed to be foolproof and safe. The design of Boat Show yachts like Yogi is unsafe.
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Joined: 21/09/2010
Posts: 196
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Incorrect junior.
Engine/steering controls must be tested before departure and prior to arrival in/out of congested waters. Unpredictable steering and engine control failures are as unexpected and welcome as a flat tyre at high speed.
Safety line and harness must be worn when working aloft. 'Falling accidents' are the result of poor supervision, bad management and of course, ultimately the total responsibility of the captain.
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Joined: 19/01/2010
Posts: 33
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As it went into the yard to have amoungst other work, the engines serviced, perhaps it had no engineer on the crew, because it was still under warranty maybe the Captain and/or Owner decided an engineer was not needed. Caterpillar engines should never be used in Marine applications, Caterpillar have a horrendous reputation in the marine industry. If the Captain did not have anyone of engineering ability onboard and needed to get the yacht to a yard for a simple engine service maybe none of the crew knew how to shut off the raw water inlet valve after the bellows broke and allowed water into the engine room. The engine should have been shut down if it was overheating before it got to the point of the bellows breaking. It is obvious that the crew did not have any basic engineering knowledge and the builders were foolish enough to recommend that the Owner have Caterpillar engines installed.
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Joined: 19/01/2010
Posts: 33
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EZcIJQGAfk&list=PLD116FBF7E3D5DA01&index=9&feature=plpp_video
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Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1011
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Heevahoa,
There may be few, but I've worked in the building sector as well, and those few such as workers hiding mistakes and covering bits they didn't do because of difficulty/time happen pretty regularly. Discussions of how to hide something from a surveyor are not too uncommon. There are multitudes of metal working sins that can be cosmetically covered with a MIG welder, grinder and 15 minutes. I'm betting there's plenty of the blame pie to go around on this, accidents of this magnitude don't ever have a single point of failure; there's usually six.
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Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1011
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"I been on the water for decades and am well aware of the skills yacht captains and crew operate with . If I know this then the designers and builders know. "
The error in that premise is that the designers an engineers have not typically been to sea for any extended periods nor have the dealt directly with yact crew.
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Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1029
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An issue concerning yachts is the relationship between stylists and naval architects. Naval Architects know very much about the sea, safety and spent their lives designing robust efficient structures. Megayachts are useless beasts who never win industry awards for their engineering excellence, they get awarded for styling. The most portholes..the most beach bars...the most flat screen tvs. The whole concept of MCA LY certification is a blind eye towards pure excelence in Naval architecture to make room for the showboats.
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Joined: 01/05/2008
Posts: 45
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UPDATE
Dockwalk received this statement today:
March 1, 2012
Proteksan Turquoise, the builders of the 60-metre yacht, M/Y Yogi,
that sank off Skyros, Greece on February 17, wishes to give an update
to the release that was sent out on February 21 as it was then stated
that the builder’s representatives would meet the owners, the Captain
and crew on or around March 1, so as to gain an understanding of the
sequence of events that lead to the casualty. It would now seem that
this meeting has been postponed until March 9 at the earliest and,
therefore, Proteksan Turquoise will continue to refrain from speculating
on the sad event before full clarification is available.
Proteksan
Turquoise would, nevertheless, like to again stress the point that M/Y
Yogi’s construction and outfitting work was surveyed and certified by
ABS and classed as XA1, Commercial Yachting Service, XAMS and built to
MCA/LY2 compliance. She was also surveyed by the French Flag Authority
during the construction period and placed on the Commercial French
Registry.
The yacht’s original building programme was under the
former Captain’s supervision and there has been no claim concerning her
performance or engines up until the time she left the yard on February
15, where she had undergone some guarantee work, mainly paint, some
interior decoration, carpet change and some minor technical adjustments.
Further updates will be released when more information becomes available.
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Joined: 01/05/2008
Posts: 45
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UPDATE
Dockwalk received this updated statement today:
M/Y Yogi - Press Statement #4
Istanbul, Turkey – 14 March 2012
Proteksan-Turquoise the builders of the 60m yacht M/Y "YOGI", that sank off the coast of Skyros, Greece on 17 February 2012, wishes to give an update to the release that was sent out on 1 March 2012.
We have now consulted with all the relevant stakeholders involved in the building and operation of the yacht.
We met with the Captain and Chief Engineer in the presence of their lawyer on 9th March 2012 in Paris. At the request of the lawyers representing the Captain and Chief Engineer and the lawyers representing other parties involved, we have agreed to keep the content of those interviews confidential.
We have also conducted our own internal inquiry into the sinking, including analysing the yacht's naval architecture, the construction methods and techniques employed by us in building the yacht. Proteksan-Turquoise is firmly of the opinion that the sinking is not attributable to anything structural or technical which would have compromised her seaworthiness.
Proteksan-Turquoise would like to stress again the point that M/Y "YOGI" whose construction and outfitting was surveyed and certified by the American Bureau of Shipping, was built to be MCA Large Yacht (LY2) compliant and was surveyed and approved by the French flag authorities.
Unless there are material developments no further updates will be released.
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I Master an ABS classed yacht who is currently going through her 5 year survey.
ABS are very nervous. Our survey is being held up as almost all of our through hull fittings are not just being surveyed (which is normal) but also heavily scrutinised from original drawings upwards. The surveyor will not comment to me regarding the sinking of YOGI other than saying he´s happy we´re not doing any modifications to our exhausts as if we were we may never get out of the shipyard 
I think that was his way of saying that it was a catastrophic failure of the exhaust bellows. Beyond that there must be user error as YOGI should be able to stay afloat, upright with little list with 1 compartment flooded. This was obviously not the case.
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Joined: 16/03/2012
Posts: 4
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Pardon me if this is a stupid question but is it possible that the batteries could sustain the lighting and other low-draw usage for that period of time? Assuming the generators were shut down (which it sounds like they were not) and the batteries were not flooded.
Also, there were some comments about the placement of the swimming pool but these boats do not "run" with a filled pool.
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Joined: 16/03/2012
Posts: 4
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Should we read something into the fact that the Captain and Engineer have their own lawyer, as opposed to the owner's lawyer?
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I don't think so, it would be the first thing I think any smart Captain would do.
You wouldn't sit back and think the builder or the insurance company will be sympathetic to your story "unrepresented" would you?
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Joined: 10/05/2008
Posts: 21
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Remember "Full Bloom"
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Joined: 12/07/2010
Posts: 59
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The captain from full bloom " actualyl princess gigi" went with the insurance company's legal team and unsuccessfully attempted to through the owner under the buss, poor Ben, .. Wait are you announcing it's the same captain??? Charles??
For the record "FB" never sank and was not a classed vessel nor commercial.
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Joined: 15/01/2009
Posts: 53
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Little Cash wrote:Should we read something into the fact that the Captain and Engineer have their own lawyer, as opposed to the owner's lawyer?
I wouldn't try and read anything into it as there are too many scenarios that will affect their representation. One needs to understand that introducing as many third parties into such a situation is a legal strategy as well as a personal best interest. My own Captain has the right to legal representation of her choice in any event, however, in any instance that does not include negligence or criminal acts outside the scope of her duties, she is automatically covered by our own legal representation.
Much depends on which way the initial investigation points and the Captain is the person who is most likely going to know which way that is. Most are usually smart enough to know that going after the builder is usually fruitless due to all the stamps of approval by one or more standards bureaucracies and going after the owner is like pissing up a rope. The smart thing to do is to introduce as many different, "interested parties" into the mix as possible thus assuring a long and drawn out mess absent a consensus. Hopefully the end result is an agreement not to discuss the final outcome while assigning no blame, or everyone is to blame. Then leave it to the insurance to pay in exchange for some consideration on the part of the builder and owner for the new build. This spreads the liability thus eliminating financial ruin. Of course legal authority has to be included in all such negotiations but spreading the blame far and wide so no one is held responsible is talking to their strength. Especially when their operating coffers are filled with compensating expenses, (coast guard operations and investigations are not cheap), negotiating vacations, and Continental Breakfasts.
As for my engineer he like the rest of the crew is only contractually culpable for a limited amount of liability not to exceed one month's pay except in the case of willful neglect or criminal act. We will provide legal representation or he can get his own at his own expense and negotiate reimbursement depending on the outcome. Our contingency for this scenario is that reimbursement would be assured and an additional law firm would be encouraged under the color of his best interest. This would give the appearance of third party representation even when that may not be the case.
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Joined: 16/03/2012
Posts: 4
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Good points.
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Joined: 06/01/2011
Posts: 81
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UKEngineer makes some sweeping statments regarding Caterpillar. I was on a Damen tug which was doing some beach repair barge towing work once, and the reason the contractors wanted a Damen tug for a sticky weather contract was that they were considered the best tugs in the world. This tug was fitted with Caterpillar engines. I also have Caterpillar work boots and a Caterpillar back-pack which takes my terrier perfectly, but I recently had to repair the shoulder straps, as they were starting to fray at the top of the bag where the drawstring closes. She is getting a bit fat... but still goes in the bag when I want her to. The Caterpillar bag is 20 years old. The terrier is 17 this March 2012 - I am happy with Caterpillar. Based on the fact that I can sew as I am a good all round sailor, I repaired my Caterpillar product myself. All engines can overheat, and I rescued a boat once which had a large clump-load of seaweed hanging out of the stern water intake and which caused the alarms to go......... I went down and pulled the clump out myself. Yours 'aye Cap'n Ed
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Joined: 21/09/2010
Posts: 196
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Yeah, that's amazing. I once made a caterpillar from my LEGO set. It only had six legs (thee each side) but it could still climb up any piece of furniture in the house, and even up the tree in the garden, and all without overheating.
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Joined: 22/09/2012
Posts: 1
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As long as this trend to keep building Yacht's that are taller and taller above the waterline stability will keep becoming a bigger problem. Combine that with many of these current "super yachts" design makes them only truly suitable for calm weather sailing. Just look at the number of M/Y that cross the Atlantic each year piggies backed onto a lift ship rather making the crossing under their own power. The common reason given is look at all the saving I have on wear and tear or insurance, the truth is most of these boats don't have the ability to make such a crossing on sea worthiness alone.
This is a head line from another publication March of 2011 "Early March the Proteksan-Turquoise shipyard launched their second superyacht of 2011, the 60.20 metre Yogi. She features exterior design by the shipyard’s in-house design team and Jean Guy Verges, who also designed Yogi’s interior." I like the part about their "Second superyacht and design by the shipyard’s in-house design team" does any body but me find that statement cause for alarm. One thing no one has raised as a possible cause is transferring of fuel, all it takes is someone to leave open or open a valve or pump combine with some bad weather and once your in a compromised state as far as stability that easy to forget to check and harder to correct.
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Joined: 21/09/2010
Posts: 196
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Groovy, your statement ''Yacht's that are taller and taller above the waterline stability will keep becoming a bigger problem'' is nonsense. Please explain your theory of stability with regards to modern cruise ships with enormous structures towering extremely high above the waterline? I suppose you think they should be restricted to calmer weather than tall motor yachts? As for exterior/interior design, the Designer may concoct anything the owner desires, providing it does not compromise Class Society rules for the vessel's stability. Transverse stability is crucial to all vessel's safety. There is a good possibility 'YOGI' may have lost her steering ability and foundered in large beam seas.
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Joined: 06/09/2012
Posts: 1
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Luxury yacht appearance is really good and we feels more comfortable in that yacht services. But, In rare conditions, The weather condition is not supporting the captain, Then it leads dangerous. Could you please produce some more attachments about the topic for view detail information.
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