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blue water & Mallorca sea School
Cpt.James
Posted: Thursday, February 3, 2011 5:26 AM
Hi ,
I saw a topic with BLUEWATER and STCW basic training and other  certificates . Interested, i had to do some calls to clarify this situation.First of all, i called IMO deck section and  they told me they knew about  the existence of  these BLUEWATER certificates but they didn´t accept them as valid STCW  certificates.  MCA accept some certificates but not all of them ; finally Spain and France don´t accept these certificates as valid  to work on Spanish /French vessels or Spanish/French  waters . What does it means ?  If you are working for a non SOLAS English yacht MCA compliant  in England or British waters  you won´t  have a problem (not today but probably tomorrow),if you work in Spain , France or Italy  you must have the full STCW training,valid GMDSS and OOW endorsement  because you will probably  have problems with maritime laws  .If you are a Captain  you can accept them but at your own risk (your boat = your risk).

The problem is now for BLUEWATER training center  , how can they mention STCW if they are not compliant with STCW ?. They´ll be probably prosecuted by Spanish and French  laws for issuance of fraudulent certificates, and by the Maritime Safety Committee of IMO.

Finally  a report from Spanish authorities to Bluewater training center(in Spanish) says clearly: " Bluewater no cumple los minimos de horas lectivas de los modelos OMI,no consideramos que esos cursos satisfagan los mínimos exigidos por el convenio STCW".what it means : Bluewater is not compliant with STCW and IMO rules.

report link :  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YzKj0oQUPeQDOpmdhb3acMyLGVzrfdyaXj3uqcfEv4w/edit?hl=en&pli=1#
junior
Posted: Thursday, February 3, 2011 7:31 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Among Liscensed Spanish Seaman wishing to work as yacht crew, the issue of cheap and cheerful weekend maritime qualifications has been bubbling away for some time. Like the USCG , the Spanish system for qualifying seaman is rigorous and time consuming. Recently I had lunch with a young Licensed Spanish engineer with 4 years of technical education, sea time, in the engineering department on Commercial craft . He was told by crew agents that he would have to apply for Y4 qualification before being considered for an introductory engineering position on yachts. I notice talk in the local marine press about addressing the issue of making young Spanish license holders from bonafide maritime academies competitive with the backpacker crowd. At present Spanish commercial license holders are traveling to the yacht schools to gain yachtmaster commercial tickets to compete in the Crew Agency job hunt. The proposals in the maritime press range from dumbing down the Spanish licensing system and creating a short cut for Spanish yacht crew or reforming the sea school system. Bureaucracy moves slow, Its not clear what will happen.
Cizealin
Posted: Thursday, February 3, 2011 8:48 AM
Joined: 26/07/2008
Posts: 50


I am confused by this topic discussion and would like to make several points. Firstly, the STCW95 basic crew course, (5 days), I believed was internationally acceptable amongst the "white list" countries. Certainly here in France, the Bluewater course is almost exactly the same length as the French one in Nice. I think one will find the Spanish one is similar? Surely there is some confusion here, or naivety going on?! Is there a mix up with flag state regulations, which prevent anyone working on a Spanish, Italian, US or French flagged yacht being of any other than that respective nationality, or resident with a work permit. Therefore there might be some suspicion of "foreign" STCW95 certificates even though they are intended to be international. There was in fact some confusion here originally years ago with Captains confused by AMSA Australian STCW95s for example. The British red ensign does not prevent other nationalities from being crew, as long as there is an understanding of the English language I believe. Please correct me with the above if I am wrong someone! Lastly, I think to say that MCA or indeed courses by Bluewater are in some way inferior in timescale generaly to others (USCG mentioned) is a bit bizarre. I suggest that it is worth looking more carefully at the time, cost and experience required for these certificates. I don't find any short cuts here under the MCA system. Bluewater have a well respected and deserved reputation, these latest unqualified remarks are completely ridiculous. If anything they are a result of complete ignorance. I believe comments like this could get them in considerable difficulty with the IMO.
Cpt.James
Posted: Thursday, February 3, 2011 10:31 AM
 Cayman registry accept them for non-SOLAS yachts ( under 24 metres and no commercial ).I´ll try to contact Marshall ,Nassau and Bahamas registry to know if they accept these certificates.

Cizealin
Posted: Thursday, February 3, 2011 4:52 PM
Joined: 26/07/2008
Posts: 50


Now I am even more confused. Since when was any non-solas yacht under 24m and "non commercial"!!
Bluewater
Posted: Thursday, February 3, 2011 6:18 PM
Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 11


Thank you for your posts today. You may notice that this post is not anonymous. My name is John Wyborn, I am a director of Bluewater Yachting. We are the longest established (and in my view, of course, the best) specialist in Professional Yacht Crew Training, celebrating this year our 20th anniversary. Firstly, I would like to point out that the previous posts on this subject were removed by dockwalk.com without our knowledge, due to the libellous content. We are NOT under investigation by any maritime authority. The IMO does not have the jurisdiction or the ability to 'investigate'. The 'report' that captain James linked to in his posting was simply a request for information from the Spanish authorities to the MCA which was sent several years ago. (I noticed that the date has been rather cleverly removed!) We are fully approved by the UK MCA for what we do. If you (or anyone else) would like to see our approval certificates I would be delighted to show them to you. There is an issue with the mutual recognition of 'Yacht' certificates between the Spanish and Italian authorities and the UK (that means 'UK' not 'bluewater') This only means that you cannot work on an Italian or a Spanish flagged yacht with UK certificates. You are fine on any 'Red Ensign' vessel in those waters and everywhere else. Equally Italian 'Yacht' certificates are not currently accepted by the MCA. WE are at the heart of efforts to change this. At this years Antibes Yacht Show we are sponsoring 'The Crew Lounge' where we will have a series of fun activities to celebrate our 20th anniversary. If you, Capt James, or any other anonymous participants, would like to let me know who you are, I would be delighted to buy you a drink and discuss any further concerns that you may have. We have nothing to hide and no need to be anonymous! Have a nice day. John Wyborn training@bluewateryachting.com
junior
Posted: Thursday, February 3, 2011 7:16 PM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Its unfortunate that Bluewater didn't refer the Original poster to http://www.stcw.org/ Note the paragraph entitled " Why doesn't one size fit all with STCW? " And you will understand the issue. Perhaps Bluewater could explain the relevance of " White list states" and explain why the MCA does not recognize a fellow signatory...Italy.
Bluewater
Posted: Friday, February 4, 2011 7:14 AM
Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 11


The 'White List' was supposed to be a list of countries at the IMO which were accepted as fully compliant with STCW in the 1995 amendments. It never really worked and just about every country is on it! The MCA accept foreign certificates once they have been checked by an inspector. They send an official to the country concerned to inspect the maritime training arrangements and invite someone from that country to come and inspect those in the UK. One successfully completed recognition is given. The MCA already recognises certificates from all EU countries, including Italy. The question here is about certificates issued with a 'Yacht' restriction. If the Italian or Spanish authorities request mutual recognition of Yacht certificates then there is a very good chance that it will be given. We have arranged for a meeting between the MCA and the marine administration in Rome soon. Hopefully things will change.
Chief
Posted: Friday, February 4, 2011 2:53 PM
Joined: 02/06/2008
Posts: 341


"The question here is about certificates issued with a 'Yacht' restriction."

 

It is past time for the IMO to step in and stop to the nonsense of allowing the MCA to endorse yacht limited certificates with the same STCW designator as real licenses.

 

For example, more and more often I am seeing CVs submitted by engineer applicants who don't even bother to state what license they hold. They simply type III/2 and either believe that tells the whole story or think that is all anyone needs to know.

 

The MCA has created this policy which renders the coding meaningless, and IMO (for reasons known only to that august body) has yet to cough up a hairball over its application. An unlimited chief engineer holds a III/2 certificate, an MCA yacht engineer with more limitations than an airline refund policy holds a III/2 certificate. Something is very wrong with this system.

 

It is time for IMO to create a new designator for these storefront issued documents or end the misleading use of the coding by the MCA in order to sell limited licenses to an unsuspecting market. MCA and the license mills are corrupting the foundation on which STCW was constructed. It is little wonder Spain and Italy are hesitant.


 
 Average 4 out of 5