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Power vs Sail
John
Posted: Monday, March 8, 2010 11:25 PM
Joined: 13/10/2008
Posts: 60


Anyone else getting sick of cheap shots from the Sailing community ? Maybe Power and Sailing Yachts should have their own separate forums. The posts and opinions seem to vary from mild to extreme. Comments in valid forums seem to ruin the flow, incite strong emotions taking away from the the original theme and turn into pissing contests. Lets have a no holds barred, free from moderation battle Royal and get this over with once and for all so the offending parties can move on add helpful incites into the issues on these forums instead off insulting each others chosen mode of propulsion. I will start off by saying first of all, I am Power, but sailed for many years, as have most of the power yacht crew I know. Some even own a sailboat. It is never the Power Yacht crew that seem to start these mini battles. Are sail boat crews jealous of our galleys, our tenders our air conditioning WHAT ?? Most sailing vessels don't even sail, except for stabilization. You are worse than Snow boarders and Skiers. We are all our there to enjoy the ocean, cant we all get along and learn from each other ? I am sick of it. I though down the Gauntlet:
Henning
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:02 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


John wrote:
Anyone else getting sick of cheap shots from the Sailing community ? Maybe Power and Sailing Yachts should have their own separate forums.


They do, multiple ones even. I come from both worlds, even have a 1600 ton Sail endorsement and came up on big turn of the century wood schooners and raced all sorts of big boats. Sailors have to have something to lord over the powerboat people to make up for the lack in pay and all the extra time and work getting somewhere. As I gained more experience with passengers under sail on big boats I came to realize something, as captain, a sailing rig is a huge liability. There's minimum a dozen extra ways for people to get hurt or killed under sail so the chances of getting called to the carpet are higher for less pay. So to make up in their minds rationalizations for making stupid career choices sailors brag on skill, their seamanship and tradition and they have to vocalize that to try to make themselves feel better. Sailing does have its good moments, but they're hardly worth the extra hassle, work and risk for reduced pay. When I turn down jobs because the boat doesn't have a wheelhouse I always get "well real sailors don't need a wheelhouse". Well, no, they don't I guess, but I've run under near bare poles (had up a little hanky of a storm tri on the mainstaysl rigging) in a hurricane out in an open aft cockpit with 100+kt wind pelting me with water between times of getting pooped, so I've been there and got the t-shirt, but I prefer to be warm and dry inside thankyouverymuch. There is some perceived glory in sailing which I never understood, but sailing does give one an advantage even in powerboats as it teaches you how to work with weather and currents and use them to advantage, rather than trying to overcome them with brute force.

14Freedom
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:53 AM
Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 155


Hey All,

Started out on a Sunfish, Beetle Cats and Wigeons. Noticed the 16' Boston Whaler with the 55 Bearcat and got my first outboard skiff soon after.

As far as work goes, loved the 50' 1939 Alden Cutter, hated the 1989 Pacifica YachtFish...Loved the 72' Roscioli Donzi, hated the 92' Brooke Motorsail, loved the 130' Perini, hated the 114' Hatteras.

Go figure...I love the OCEAN and being on it. Whatever vessel, power or sail allows me (and you) to do that. Some are better than others yet power vs. sail is not the question. It is getting out on the sea and enjoying it, whether power or sail. Professionally, power pays better...but has an attitude. My cut-offs are long gone.

ATB-
The Slacker

junior
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 11:56 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Whoa !!! John...Chill ! No need to get all wound up and insecure because a sailor boy kicked sand in your face, then stole your girl.... Stuff happens all the time. As for this ..." Lets have a no holds barred, free from moderation battle Royal and get this over with once and for all " ???? John, you've been perched in the crew mess, chomping burgers and watching way to many Professional Wrestling Greatest Hits reruns. Standing on the bulwarks in your underpants, beating your chest, preparing to body slam the teak deck might be a standard Stinkpot maneuver, but its just not the modern way to find a new girl to replace the one you lost to that sailor boy.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 1:42 PM
John, John, John, Let me try to explain this to you. Firstly, Sailing is not a mode of transportation. It is a Sport. It is even in the olympics! Seriously, you can look it up. Secondly, It is fairly difficult to learn and become proficient at. That is why I have a special license proclaiming me to be competent to run a sailing yacht! Thirdly, it attracts a completely different sort of person than powerboats do. Powerboats are owned by people named Guido from New Jersey with gold chains and a carpet of back hair. They often have issues with their masculinity and attempt to overcome them with lots of revving of engines and plumes of smelly exhause smoke. Very tacky!! Sailing yachts are Elegant, they are all about the journey, not a bus ride on water to the next marina/bar. For instance Hooters does not own a Sailing Yacht, Baron Philippe Rothchild does. Get It?
Henning
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 2:48 PM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Anonymous wrote:
John, John, John, Let me try to explain this to you. Firstly, Sailing is not a mode of transportation. It is a Sport. It is even in the olympics! Seriously, you can look it up. Secondly, It is fairly difficult to learn and become proficient at. That is why I have a special license proclaiming me to be competent to run a sailing yacht! Thirdly, it attracts a completely different sort of person than powerboats do. Powerboats are owned by people named Guido from New Jersey with gold chains and a carpet of back hair. They often have issues with their masculinity and attempt to overcome them with lots of revving of engines and plumes of smelly exhause smoke. Very tacky!! Sailing yachts are Elegant, they are all about the journey, not a bus ride on water to the next marina/bar. For instance Hooters does not own a Sailing Yacht, Baron Philippe Rothchild does. Get It?


That is a big lie! Sailing is as simple as it comes. I've been teaching sailing for over 20 years in one form or another including for a kids summer camp. The average 6-7 year old is a proficient sailor in a few days. A reasonably sharp adult can be taught from nothing to being able to make daylight passages in 2 days. Sailing has been a mode of transportation for thousands of years. Sailing as a sport, especially an Olympic "sport" didn't develop until long after it was a commercial adaptation of a lazy person trying to get out of work. For many millenia, sailing was a major part of commerce and militaria while yachts were few. Then in another adaptation of human intelligence we developed motor propulsion over the last sesquicentennial and commerce has gone from sail to motor propulsion, so that tells you the realities of which is "better".  Most sailors cover their insecurities with bluster about the difficulty and art of sailing which in fact just makes them sound like complete and utter losers because, in fact, it's something most any child learns easily. Believe it or not, most motor yacht people actually can sail. I bet the little monkeys on Gatun lake can sail too. Desiring to sail is just a genetic mutation signifying the inability to evolve and that you're not exactly too bright....

Sailing=Difficult, what a freakin joke. Sailing, what you do when you're cheap and stupid.....

Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:11 PM
Oh Henning, game on....hahaha. Thanks for that but I was going to come at it from a different angle, but hey. My First boat was a 200 foot tall ship as a volunteer. My second was a 75 schooner for 200 a month, had to work summers at a restaurant just to afford cigarettes and beer before I took that one. I did deliveries for free, passages for seatime and raced in the Chesapeake bay schooner races just for the camaraderie and fun of it all. Now I work on Power Yachts for my living. Don't lecture me on the attitude and "way of life" that sailors take. I have friend who actually raced in America cup races, who by the way run power yachts right now. As for elegance, How sexy is the Picton Castle......the sexy boats you talk of measure up as the ultimate pissing contest, where the guy who hold the trophy fights in court and doesn't even sail....get off it.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:31 PM
Cheap an stupid?? As opposed to the remarkable intelligence it takes to polute the planet, disturb anywildlife within a mile of yourself and all for the purpose of transporting your fat ass around in your floating bordello?? Yeah that takes intelligence!!!By the way Guido says get your delusional self back to work, maybe go clean those disgusting exhaust stain off your hull.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:47 PM
Throw your motor over the side and build your boat out of an already fallen tree then talk.......you are probably a vegetarian against companies like COKE and PEPSI who drinks beer out of a can and wears leather shoes and belts. I have been passed by sailboats with twin screw engines that were larger than mine, clean your own exhaust stains hypocrite.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:51 PM
They can't clean their own hull, they are probably too busy sipping cheap wine, eating cheese and crackers from safeway and reading a book they can't understand in the cockpit of their owners boat pretending it is theirs.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 3:54 PM
I always loved throwing ICE overboard in a crowded hot summer anchorage full of Wafi's.
junior
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 4:23 PM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Power vs Sail. There is only two ways to become a professional seaman. Serve your time on commercial motor vessels performing worthwhile economic activity or work as a sailor on yachts. A yacht crew will never and I repeat NEVER gain the knowledge, geographic experience and sea time required to earn the distinction of "professional seaman " by working on the Gin Palaces. I have never in my whole career on yachts encountered a Mega Motoryacht offshore . On my port side is a Italian 35 meter " active" charter motor yacht built in 1993. I was over in her engine room borrowing a clamp meter last week and remarked to the captain that her machine space and huge MTU's were spotless, then asked.... how many engine hours ? 1619 hrs since launch !!!!!!! The sailing yacht I'm on was built in the same year...1993...and has 10,503 engine hours on her MTU, with just shy of 260,000 miles on the permanent log. This indicates that after two years with us, my crew will have more sea time, watch standing time, radar tuning time, logbook entry time, seamanship challenges, than the captain of that motor yacht. Motoryacht crew will always be limited by this reality and always be forced to cope with their inexperience by accumulating ever more school bought paper yacht tickets during the Dock Express time of year..
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 4:41 PM
Junior, there ARE yachts that move too ! Quite a few actually. I gained 60 000 on the same yacht in three years. There are different mentalities on the Yachts as well. A lot of serious sailors find boats that move, gain the experience of which you speak then, once certified try to find a boat that doesn't move as much so they can have a bit of a life ashore and perhaps a partner after years of travel. So I take it that is your beef then, you don't like "Chamois Techs" calling themselves seaman ? Well we don't either. A lot of the " Yachies" I grew up with don't like being called "Yachties" and prefer to be called seaman because they do travel and have 300 000 miles under their belt as opposed to the Chammy Techs in Lauderdale. The Crew I know I met in Chile, then Alaska, then Russia or in Stockholm, not Blondies or Waxy's.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 4:42 PM
Junior, you are on a "sailing yacht" with over 10,000 engine hours. That kinda makes you a power boat doesn't it ???
Pascal
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 5:15 PM
Joined: 23/11/2008
Posts: 42


maybe for some of you this has been a job more than a passion for too long and you forgot that both sides have more in common than differences.  Personally, i love being on the water and enjoy both sailing and powering: I run motoryacht, own a 53' Hatteras as my personal boat and dont' miss an chance to sail (Hobie 16). In fact, on saturday we bought a 12' Westphal Catboat (very similar to a Beetle) which is now our new tender, fitting neatly on the Hatt boat deck.

hard to believe that "professionals" would show that much disrespect for the "other side" and woudl be too narrow minded to see behind the clichés of the obnoxious polluting  stinkpotter or the cheap sailors.

Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 5:16 PM
Well john, I think you got your wish! is this discussion Spirited enough for you? in response to the allegations posted by anon 15:47 My current personal boat does not have an engine, therefore no exhaust stains and consequently No Hypocricy! I am not against Coke or Pepsi as long as it is paired with Mount Gay Rum, I am neither a vegetarian nor a Tree Hugger. I am in fact a lifelong sailor whom has used mainly wind power to propel a craft over 200,000nm. Learning a great many things along the way. From Easter Island, the Galapagos,and beyond I have made no negative environmental impact on any of the places I have visited, unlike you , with your half assed assumptions and beligerent attitude leave a stinking trail of negativity as foul as your engine exhaust.
junior
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 7:02 PM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Its the constipated learning curve which slows down a motoryacht crews aquisition of knowledge. All crew on stinkers are stereotyped and segregated by department, literally unaware of the world happening around them . On a Sailing yacht we have no choice but to involve all crew with every detail of operation and navigation . My stewardess just returned, driving the crew tender with a bag of groceries, knows every Colregs Flashcard drill, is proficient on Transas , Philips AP Navigator, Furuno CPA, Sat Com C .... She s only the stewardess, no licence, no yachty tickets, but is 100 percent competent as a valuable , general purpose, watch standing crew. Many times I feel sorry for crew like this stewardess when then inevitably leave the yacht to seek the big stink paycheck , more vacation time , 50 inch plasma screne tv, only to be brought to their knees polishing the captains shoes and talking 5 star trash. As for as the idealist who can cover great slabs of distance without an engine...good on you. Perhaps when I grow up I can be that disciplined. Until then Ive got to play the game as best I can ..... Destination 1200 miles downrange , next pickup in 7 days, leaves little time for idealism .
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 7:40 PM

Junior, that's more of a size issue than a mode of power one. I was a stewardess on a 65-foot motor yacht, but because it was 65 feet we were between 2 and 3, including the captain. There was no segration of duties. As a stewardess, I would lift the anchor, plot a course, drive and drop the anchor. Yes, moving to larger yachts, my duties became more narrow, but it had nothing to do with sail vs motor - its large vs small.


sheddon filday
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 11:05 PM
..whats the big deal guys...? The Sea is all about RESPECT
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, March 9, 2010 11:37 PM
Anyone else getting sick of cheap shots from the Sailing community ? Maybe Power and Sailing Yachts should have their own separate forums. The posts and opinions seem to vary from mild to extreme.

Well John, it didn't take long to prove your point!!!  A couple of rather tame and thoughtful responses, before the . . . . "I'm a better captain than you because I run a sailboat" . . . . in-fighting begins . . . .wow, didn't see that coming (sarcasm)!






Henning
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:18 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Anonymous wrote:
Anyone else getting sick of cheap shots from the Sailing community ? Maybe Power and Sailing Yachts should have their own separate forums. The posts and opinions seem to vary from mild to extreme.

Well John, it didn't take long to prove your point!!!  A couple of rather tame and thoughtful responses, before the . . . . "I'm a better captain than you because I run a sailboat" . . . . in-fighting begins . . . .wow, didn't see that coming (sarcasm)!





Exactly, normally it's a false statement because normally the ones making it are not the ones that are a better captain for having the experience. Here's the reality of how much better seamen that sailing yachties are: http://www.dockwalk.com/Essentials/DockTalk.aspx?g=posts&t=28284 In that thread, you will find the results of the investigation into the accident in this link: http://www.cyca.com.au/sysfile/downloads/CYCA_Flinders_Islet_Internal_Inquiry_Report.pdf. For those of you who believed you had bragging rights on seamanship because you were under sail, you can thank your sailing brethren from down under for costing you that. Read that report and tell me how many gross errors in seamanship you can pick out. And these were well seasoned sailors who regularly campaign boats. The proof is in the pudding, and rag baggers f- it up just as well as stink potters.

 The diferences between power and sail are miniscule in the context of the entire "seamanship" knowledge base that one should have as a captain or any level seaman really. Like I said, I can teach anyone to sail in a weekend. Teaching seamanship takes much longer, about 3 years from green to first command, and most of the issues are the same regardless method of propulsion. It's mostly about learning to analyze information and make good decisions. I can take an accomplished seaman from a workboat and in a week, he'll be an accomplished seaman who can proficiently ply his trade under sail. There is no "black art" of sailing, there is no "magic" involved. It's basic physics is all.
 The sea though gets an extra dozen ways to kill you and you have a bunch more critical maintenance to keep up on. Many of us captains can run either power or sail equally well. Another factor is crew. I need a much more competent crew on a sailboat than I do a motor yacht.

Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:33 AM
Sail for play, power for pay.
junior
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:20 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Henning... to be on yachts as an amateur is very simple... as you say a weekends instruction and anyone can get out on the water. The difference is that on yachts we get paid... yacht crew are expected perform at a higher level than the weekender. This next level, pay to perform, cant be bought at class and is very difficult for a motoryacht crew to learn. Something basic like handling mooring lines with towboat hitch ? How simple can seamanship be. This week I was at the shipyard paying bills. As Im walking out of the office the shipyard foreman asked If I could lend a hand. They just launched a 150 ton motoryacht. The yacht was still lying in the travel lift slip, wind was strong on the beam and her bow thruster was uncommissioned . Difficult manoeuvre to get free without a bow thruster, so the shipyard gang clad the leeward concrete quay and knuckle with plywood sheets, rigged a half dozen extra fenders and prepared a windward, bow led, aft spring to keep her from being blown onto the concrete as she powered forward. The forman asked me to dead end the spring on the yacht then control it off the the dock bollard..... ease off as the yacht powered ahead and keep her bow to windward. . I rigged the spring passed it thru the forward fairleed to the yachts deckhand . When I passed it to him I said ...throw a 4 wrap Towboat hitch on that dockline snubbing winch then stand by to cast off in case my wraps on the dock bollard hang up as you power out. This deckhand had no idea what a Towboat hitch was....I repeated...tow boat hitch...tugboat hitch...towing hitch.... ToBo...Lightermans hitch ...still a dazed look on his face. Unacceptable for yacht crew who is paid to work on deck. . Basic seamanship. My stewardess knows how to use a towboat hitch to lock off a loaded self tailing winch.
SBC
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:41 AM
Joined: 14/10/2008
Posts: 33


Oh, a dream come through. Thanks for bringing it up, John. And boy, did it bring out some of the most active post'ers (I wouldn't say "imposters", would I?) Also having a leg in both camps, it is quite simple, you only learn to become a sailor on a "sailor-boat" (hmm) All the young stinkies are nothing but gloryfied cleaners anyway. Most of them farmboys from some forgotten English colony, who will do anything to escape, and get paid more than a doctor in their home country. So, just accept it, guys, keep shammying and looking important in your fancy dresses, while we "raggies" have fun. And as to pay, that is changing, thank (whoever you believe in) As a matter of fact, the MCA manning tables specify HIGHER engineer qualifications for sailing vessels than for motor vessels, whereas deck qualifications are the same. So it can not be long before pay descrepansies shifts in the favour of sailors. Happy sailing, all!
Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:30 AM
SBC and Junior, you are absolutely right. Last year I was a guest on a 40m poweryacht, we left our side to marina berth and headed for the city pier to fuel up. The Captain told the crew they would be going stern-to to avoid laying alongside the nasty concrete pier. After the mate went forward to drop the hooks, the 4 crewmembers on the transom looked very befuddled standing among a pile of fenders and docklines, I explained to them that they would want to put the fenders on the transom and rig-up 2 stern lines, that the transom would be up against the dock. After we tied up, the deckhand looked at me and asked"But what does the "2" mean in stern-to? Can you believe that neither the deckie, egineer, stew or chef had any idea what the intended maneuver entailed? You could just imagine the looks on their faces if they were asked to double reef the main, hoist the staysail and rig up jack lines. And for those of you who can teach someone to sail in a weekend, that's just great, you have a real gift. But I can teach a 5 year old how to drive a dinghy in an hour. This would no more give them the experience to run a 100' poweryacht, than your weekend lesson would enable your pupil to manage a same sized sailing yacht.
abouis
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:45 PM
Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 22


What's that annoying whining noise coming from that powerboat over there? 

It's not the engine, it's the captain!  How about you grow a thicker skin!  Who cares if some sailboater called your boat stinky???

Facts of the matter is that we are all sailors, and calling for separate forums only succeeds in widening the divide.  Sure, there are some topics that might be segregated, such as discussion of rig design and sail plans, but we have a lot more in common than we have differences.

Get over yourselves.  Your post, and some of the responses, are exactly why powerboaters and sailors alike can make stupid generalizations about the "other side".   Grow up and stop acting like idiots, all of you!!!




John
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:20 PM
Joined: 13/10/2008
Posts: 60


Abouis, I am trying to close the gap, not widen it by giving each "side" a chance to voice their differences. So far all I get is sailing yacht crew are gods and stinkpot crew are idiots. We all can all cite examples to prove our own respective philosophies, but counting out who crashes more isn't the goal of this forum. It's can't we all just get along. There will come a day when every sailboater is glad to see a stinky cruise past and vice-versa. Nothing prettier than a Schooner under full press. What the sailing community seems to forget is that most Skinky crew are also part of the sailing community. Most of the guys I know can single hand at least a 34' footer. Now, Junior, I do see your point. It is what it is. Some people are dangerous and inexperienced. Passing out what appear to be bitter insults isn't going to change anything except fuel the fire. You are not the entire sailing communities conscience nor do you represent all of their opinions and philosophies. You are one man created by your experience. Maybe right, maybe wrong, but instead of hammering on stinkies solely (cause their are deficiencies on everything that floats) use that knowledge to educate instead of criticize.
abouis
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 5:47 PM
Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 22


John, it sounds like you are just another troll trying to fuel the fire by calling upon everyone to come out and air their differences and all that will do is get all the little girls to start up again with a bunch more bickering.  That's not going to help anything!!

Of course, nobody wants to talk about how much they love the ocean, or what they are doing to protect the cleanliness of our water, or where the best place they have ever sailed or motored to, etc.  That's just boring.  Everyone would rather bitch about how much that boat stinks or how small the galley is on that monohull. 

If all you hear is how much stinkpots suck and sailboats rock, maybe there is some truth in that.   Or maybe the sailors simply are able to talk more loudly at the dock because they are not horse from yelling over the sound of the engines all day!





Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:22 PM
Whatever John's motivaton may be, he certainly got people thinking. As a matter of fact I was thinking about his comment that "every sailor is glad to see a poweryacht at some time in their life and it brought back a memory of Sailing back to Antibes from the Rolex Swan Regatta in Sardinia. We cruised around Corsica for a few days and then Disaster Struck....We ran out of white wine! Since we were planning seafood for dinner, this was quite the calamity. Well let me tell you not an hour later this big Stinkpot pulls into our completely deserted anchorage, and agrees to trade us some red wine for white! There you go, disaster averted! Now if they would only Leave, they're blocking our view of the sunset.
junior
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:44 PM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Not often am I happy to come face to face with a big multi story stinky...the huge wake rolling thru the anchorage, Jet skis, underwater lights, night time generators and chains on their dock lines always ruins the ambiance. Even running into a gang of stinkers in the pub and listening to complaints about money , chefs, licenses or the size of their bunk gets tiresome. Oh and since there are a few sailors around these days you might be interested in the birthday present that the owner gave me last year. A Spinlock Deckvest. Its the most comfortable harness, PFD that Ive ever worn and the soft ring lanyard attachment wont strip the varnish off your Speedwave carbon steering wheels. Mention it to your boss...you wont be disapointed.... Id expect that the girls would be very comfy in one. http://www.sailingproshop.com/Products/SPINLOCK-DECKVEST--Inflatable-PFD-and-Harness__Spinlock_DW_Deckvest.aspx
Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 8:36 PM
Well, if you can't beat em, join em, if you cant join em, work on a sailboat........
Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 9:00 PM

Quite an interesting blog this one. Being a relative newcomer to the industry and over the last four years having worked on boats ranging from 100m+ motoryachts down to 20+m sailing boats I would say the following. Everyone working on a yacht gains seamanship skills. It’s all there if you are willing to apply yourself and learn from others. There’s a lot to learn whether you’re in St Tropez parking a large tender alongside an even larger yacht swinging at anchor in 30kts, or in the middle of the Pacific holding a watch in big seas on a smaller sailing yacht. As far as the argument against Gin Palace crew not being seamen goes, these comments seem to come from people who never made it onto the bigger yachts. There’s a lot a ‘chamois technician’ can learn when sharing a night watch with a Master Mariner.

 

As for Junior, I’m not getting good vibes there. So keen to put other people down all the time whilst proclaiming himself as someone who has learned the ‘hard way’. Remember Junior, no-one really cares if you’re a hero, you’re still employed by someone to take them on holiday and have a nice time. Also you don’t have to go so far offshore to get your big seas and storms to build ‘seamanship’. Some of the worst weather out there is in the Med, home of many Stinkpots…

 

P.S. Tugboat hitches are all very well, but with tenders on big motor yachts they normally put them on the foredeck or in the garage. This requires the use of large cranes or lifting gear, which in turn requires training and skill to operate and good teamwork from all crew involved.


Henning
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:01 PM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


junior wrote:
Henning... to be on yachts as an amateur is very simple... as you say a weekends instruction and anyone can get out on the water. The difference is that on yachts we get paid... yacht crew are expected perform at a higher level than the weekender. This next level, pay to perform, cant be bought at class and is very difficult for a motoryacht crew to learn. Something basic like handling mooring lines with towboat hitch ? How simple can seamanship be. This week I was at the shipyard paying bills. As Im walking out of the office the shipyard foreman asked If I could lend a hand. They just launched a 150 ton motoryacht. The yacht was still lying in the travel lift slip, wind was strong on the beam and her bow thruster was uncommissioned . Difficult manoeuvre to get free without a bow thruster, so the shipyard gang clad the leeward concrete quay and knuckle with plywood sheets, rigged a half dozen extra fenders and prepared a windward, bow led, aft spring to keep her from being blown onto the concrete as she powered forward. The forman asked me to dead end the spring on the yacht then control it off the the dock bollard..... ease off as the yacht powered ahead and keep her bow to windward. . I rigged the spring passed it thru the forward fairleed to the yachts deckhand . When I passed it to him I said ...throw a 4 wrap Towboat hitch on that dockline snubbing winch then stand by to cast off in case my wraps on the dock bollard hang up as you power out. This deckhand had no idea what a Towboat hitch was....I repeated...tow boat hitch...tugboat hitch...towing hitch.... ToBo...Lightermans hitch ...still a dazed look on his face. Unacceptable for yacht crew who is paid to work on deck. . Basic seamanship. My stewardess knows how to use a towboat hitch to lock off a loaded self tailing winch.


Junior, for every example you can give me of a moron on a motor yacht, I can give an example of a moron on a sailing yacht. You can't fix stupid regardless of what boat you are on. As I said, I can take an accomplished seaman off a work boat and in a week he will be an accomplished seaman plying his trade under sail to professional standards. Seamanship is about mental ability, not physical. If you know how to run a safe vessel under power, you can do so under sail with a very shallow learning curve. It's not that it's difficult for motor yacht crew to learn, it's difficult for stupid people to learn and 80% of the human race is stupid. Hell, it's difficult to develop competent seamen on any boat, and it requires having a good teacher. There are a lot of weak captains out there on sail and motor yachts. My advantage on a motor yacht is I have an easier time keeping stupid people from making fatal errors because there are less fatal errors to make. A sail boat has all the same modalities of injury and death that a motor yacht does, plus a dozen more.

David Evans
Posted: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:04 PM
Joined: 08/02/2010
Posts: 6


Hi All, Love to join in this one - as is noted above 'Sail for Play, Motor for Pay'. I think this is becoming less apparent as rulings are coming in that do not care if one has a carbon 200ft stick in the middle of it or not. The reality of the difference seems to be the guests and owners preference - as indeed it should be. Sailing yacht crew will be seen more by the owner, whether they like it or not, as they are required to be on deck to sail the boat. This tends (not a rule at all here) to mean that the owner is a little more relaxed. 'Motor is about being there - sail is about getting there' is also something I have heard, and I do see the boats pick up in the evening to get somewhere overnight - much like a cruise ship - 10 islands in 12 days. Whereas the WAFI's head off after breakfast and relish in the sail - if it isn't directly upwind or blowing too hard or not at all. Which neatly leads me back to the relaxed owner - the one thing you cannot pay for is sailing conditions - I think this lends itself to a more relaxed less 'controlling' atmosphere which pervades the sailing side of the industry. Just wanted my pennies in on this one...
Genevieve
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:03 AM
Joined: 05/10/2009
Posts: 4


Power vs. Sail? What is a Power yacht? "Why do Perinis have masts... so they can pay their crew less".
junior
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:54 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Well Henning , I say that you are indeed correct....plenty of Dumb people in the world. Its unfortunate that motoryachts are a magnet for these dopes. On sailing yachts the barrier to entry is high and this competition keeps the unskilled on the dock . In the harbour I presently berth, Im the only crewed sailing yacht ....among more than a dozen 30 to 40 meter class motoryachts. Not many sailing yachts in the world. Ive got a handful of resumes on the chart table from young deckhands looking for a job who have many years of worthwhile experience with seamanship. This is a deckhands job...not a captains job. These young guys could easily sit thru an MCA regime and be driving 30 meter stinkies by summer, but they choose to continue sailing. To me this indicates that these young sailing crew have a passion for yachts and as you know when you have a passion , you will develop skill as a seaman. The whole reason why Ive stuck it out for more than 30 years on little sailing yachts, living in foul weather gear, having the doc cut out the skin cancers and replace my damaged eyes with glass lenses is that I get to inhabit a world surrounded by these skilled crew with a passion for what they do. Even the guests who come with us have a passion for sailing and know how to interpret the Polar diagrams on the steering pedestals. Motoryachts are a different world, full of crew who cant make this grade. Simply examine the crew makeup on a 10 crew motoryacht and you will find 40 percent seaman and 60 percent janitorial, customer service staff. Massage therapists ?...beauty technicians? ...bar tenders ? Nannies ? Laundry service ? Never on a sailing yacht. I carry neither a true stewardess nor a true chef...simply sailors who agree to take on these extra responsibilities. All my crew are seaman and customer service means applying seamanship to everything the owner wishes to do, not your skill at mixing drinks. If you look around the sailing yachts you will see this repeated time after time.
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:40 AM
What is the difference really. It doesn't matter about Power or Sail or whether "mine is bigger than yours". We are all just BNs, some here for the money -power, and some of here for the love - SAIL. Tablet
Henning
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:41 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


junior wrote:
Well Henning , I say that you are indeed correct....plenty of Dumb people in the world. Its unfortunate that motoryachts are a magnet for these dopes. On sailing yachts the barrier to entry is high and this competition keeps the unskilled on the dock ...Ive got a handful of resumes on the chart table from young deckhands looking for a job who have many years of worthwhile experience with seamanship. This is a deckhands job...not a captains job. These young guys could easily sit thru an MCA regime and be driving 30 meter stinkies by summer, but they choose to continue sailing. To me this indicates that these young sailing crew have a passion for yachts and as you know when you have a passion , you will develop skill as a seaman.


You say that as if it is a definitive when it is not. Plenty of stupid people with passion, especially on sailboats (it's the passion that keeps them there in spite of the wage). Boats get crewed in accordance with how the boat gets used. If the boats job requires bartenders, it gets bartenders. On a small sailboat, you don't have room for dedicated bartenders, nor do you have the guest load to require them. Most yachts be they motor or sail are waterfront cocktail condos. You speak of motor yachts as all of them are floating "gin palaces" when that is not true. There are plenty of large motor yachts that roam the world and have competent crew on them. They are typically private vessels and hire people with professional standards and backgrounds rather than the backpackers the charter fleet relies on. Where as you need every member of your crew to be a proficient seaman and sailor because a sailing vessel is so labor intensive, I really only need 2 people I can rely on regardless the size vessel. Besides, while you may leave unskilled people on the dock, there are plenty of sailboats out there crewed with them.

junior
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:42 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Henning...THIS IS THE PROBLEM with motoryachts...they need few skilled crew. You, the engineer plus a skilled watch stander can perform the required seamanship and get the job done. It will be interesting to see how motoryachts in the charter trade, with their 40 / 60 seaman service staff ratio, will conform to the new MLC regulations. These regulations will reduce your crew numbers and require the remaining crew to be multi skilled. The future crew, the multi skilled members who will make MLC work, are entering the industry this summer as young deckies....no time to loose in bringing them up to speed. As for the anonymous poster who states... "Tugboat hitches are all very well, but with tenders on big motor yachts they normally put them on the foredeck or in the garage. " Well Anon...a ToBo has many uses besides towing a tender, it is method to handle loaded lines on a bollard , sampson post or capstan....just as a Coonass comealong doesn't require the Coonass to be on board, you don't need to be a towboat to employ a Tobo. .
kapt_mark
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:37 AM
Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 81


Why pigeon-hole yourself with the label of power or sail only. I do both. Last year skippering a 30m sloop, this year on a 27m go fast. I must admit, life on the sloop was much more fun but I just go where the work is these days. I find pay and crew skill levels about the same on power and sail and tend to be more related to the individual owner and how much they will pay.
Genevieve
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:20 PM
Joined: 05/10/2009
Posts: 4


http://www.dockwalk.com/Essentials/DockTalk.aspx?g=posts&t=28284 RIP Andy and Sal. Junior... take a deep breath... are you so wriled up you can't take a joke? Next time you label someone "dumb" make sure you know who you are talking about
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:36 PM
My deckhands navigate without GPS, or the plotter, they have prove proficiency in chart work, three point radar fixes every half an hour and use parallel indexes for course changes before they were allowed near GPS as an aid and mostly at night. Most of them don't know what a tugboatmans hitch is YET, and that is my fault, but when the time comes to use it I will show them. I bet a deckhand on a Tow boat can tie a tugboatmans hitch with there eyes closed but never get near the bridge.
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:33 PM
I recieve lots of pot shots from motor yachties toward sail yachties. I do both. I do not see the point of rank comments from either group.
wiggy
Posted: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:12 PM
Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 1


This is hilarious!! I thought you guys were supposed to be professionals! The professionalism should not stop as soon as you start typing on a forum.

This thread and others are the reason I dislike forums so much. Most of you are  keyboard warriors just throwing insults and negativity around. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't if you were face to face.

Please guys, we're in this industry for all the same reasons wether we're on a rag top or a stinker.

Get a grip!

Henning
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:35 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


junior wrote:
Henning...THIS IS THE PROBLEM with motoryachts...they need few skilled crew. You, the engineer plus a skilled watch stander can perform the required seamanship and get the job done.


Can you explain to me how this is the problem? If I am limited in the crew I can hire for a motor yacht, am I not in a better position when I only need a few skilled people rather than the many a sailboat needs? Besides, I can, and always do, cross train interior staff to be competent on deck. Most of them like it as it gets them outside a bit, and the ones that don't like it can work somewhere where they dedicate people to their single job. I don't see it as an issue of the vessel type, rather the crew candidate and captain type. There is no problem finding the same seasoned and dedicated professional crew for a motor yacht that you get on a sailing yacht. The issue is one of the false air of superiority that sailors bring with them just because they are on a sailboat. Besides, I see big sail boats with dedicated interior crew as well. That isn't so much a function of sail vs. power as much as it is of size and number & demands of the guests on board. If you have a small boat where the owner is into boating, then you have a smaller crew of boat people. If the owner is into entertaining, then you have more crew dedicated to service. Not every sailboat operates the same as yours, and most sailboats I see running around, are running around under power.

CantrellChef
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:57 AM
Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 1


i love sailing. period. being stuck in a galley with no opportunity to actually interact with the ocean in a hands-on manner just doesnt appeal to me.
Anonymous
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 1:02 AM
sailing is about pride. sailors take pride in the fact that we work that much harder, have to learn that much more, in order to harness and work with the power of the ocean and weather by understanding it, rather than overcoming it with larger engines. that is something to brag about. motoryachties can brag about their higher pay for less work, more vacation time, bigger tips, and more luxurious crew accomodations. and the so-called sailors who turn to motoryachts after a few charters on a sailboat aren't really sailors at all. i call those people sellouts. don't get me wrong, we're all apart of a community who earns their living by scrubbing toilets and cooking for people with a LOT more money than we could ever accrue in our lifetime, but sailing and motoryachting are definitely two different worlds. two different lifestyles who attract two VERY different types of people, with different values and goals. so my question is to all yachties is this: what is the goal that you want to achieve in this industry? are you hear for the money and to emulate a lifestyle which you could rarely ever recreate yourself, or are you here to work and learn a craft which will serve you for the rest of your lifetime? oh and henning, "Believe it or not, most motor yacht people actually can sail. I bet the little monkeys on Gatun lake can sail too. Desiring to sail is just a genetic mutation signifying the inability to evolve and that you're not exactly too bright...." a f*cking monkey can push a shammy around, any old hotel maid can clean toilets and make beds. you ever see a monkey sail a 150 ft vessel, while taking account of the wind patterns and ocean currents, measuring how much sail you need to harness enough energy from the wind to go forward, WHILE shammying and cleaning toilets and making beds?
Henning
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 2:47 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


LOL, A monkey can sail too. Sailing is easier than making a bed properly, and I've never seen a shortage of chamois driving on a sailing yacht. If you think you can get out of general maintenance and cleaning because you can sail, then wow. The deckhands on the sailboats I run have all the same duties as the deckhands on the motor yachts I run. That is the job you are being paid for. You accept a lower wage because you get to sail. Sailing is part of the pay packet, not the job. I decided I prefer cash, you do as you please, but don't dare to think yourself a better person than I on that alone. That would be delusional. I backed a 113' schooner into a slip under sail in the Cerritos channel with a set and the USCG onboard. I can still do that with a practiced crew. I've done all that, I no longer feel the need to pay for the experience. I don't have a problem with sailors taking pride in sailing, heck, I take pride in sailing, I take pride in everything I do. I have issues with them deluding themselves into thinking it automatically makes them better seamen than someone working a motor yacht. As for me selling out, yeah, but I sold out on flying for a living, boats pay way better and sooner. To me, it doesn't matter if I'm on a sailboat or motor, when it comes to boats, I'm a whore, I run them for money, not passion, I handle all boats equally well regardless of means and configuration of propullsion. I've run them all, sails, straight shaft SS & TS, even triples, Z drives ASD and SDM, Cyclodial drives, Jets and 5 engine combos, Arnesons.... All the same to me, I manage energy, thats what I do. I don't much care where the energy is coming from or what the job. Boats, Planes & Cranes I enjoy the most and have made most of my living at. I enjoy the sea so it works out well enough for me. As a professional who makes my living at it, I'll go where the money is especially when it also presents me with a reduced liability. It's the "I am a sailor that makes me better" crowd that is actually the unprofessional crowd. The fact that you think there is so much more to know with sailing just shows how short your knowledge of general seamanship is, because 99% of seamanship is the same whether you are sailing or under power.

junior
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 6:50 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Henning ...the sun will soon be north of the equator. Great hordes of dockwalkers have poured out of the cities and are milling around in dense , swirling bait balls on quay heads , waterfront bars, anxiously waiting for a fresh Dock Express loaded with seagoing motoryachts to arrive. All these walkers must be utilized by motoryachts simply because these great hords don't have the required skills, ambition nor fantasy to work on sailing yachts . Nail Technicians , flower arrangers, wine tasters....... as much as we love them as shipmates on a dark N' stormy night, we simply do not have a bunk for them on sailing yachts. With regard to MLC , Motoryachts will very soon have to adapt to the reduced manpower reality by only employing multi talented MTU trained Engineer / Nail Technicians, fully licensed Mate /Nannies and 5 star deckhand /wine taster Supercrew to star in the glossy Showboat brochures generated by Stinkpot charter guru's. On the sailing yachts we cant train these specialized ,multipurpose crew to feed the stink industry. Somehow Motoryachts will have to domestically train this new generation of Supercrew. Better get busy...no time to loose.
EdLee
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 7:37 AM
Joined: 05/03/2010
Posts: 18


Whenever the arguments get heated up and goes into ego-maniac drive, it's always good to chill out watching some funny videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqKpnU8sCE

 
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