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Ageism
Ian Walker
Posted: Sunday, January 24, 2010 4:32 PM
Joined: 20/11/2008
Posts: 4


I was recently approach by a mate re a position on a 40mtr Motor yacht. I gave him my c/v and references and HE seemed suitably impressed and said he would pass them on to the manager. 3 days later  I went back down to be told that the manager was going to hang out for a younger person. Now I know I an 61 going on 40 but have been involved in the Marine industry for 30 years with a vast amount of experience. This would have paid off last weekend as we had a gregale warning ( this is in Malta by the way ) This is when the wind is in a particular direction you get almost tsami like surges into the Marinas. This came and all the spare ropes were in a container a quater of mile away and no contngency plans were in force. The result was the bow lines went and the boat swung around hiting the boats either side ending up beam on to the quay the damage only being limited by the crew frantically running around with fenders. So much for experience !!! Any Comments ?

Ian Walker (Malta )


Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:51 PM
Ian - Having had the pleasure of working with you in the past I suspect that the reason is not that you are old but that you are nearly dead!
Capt. Rob
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 6:26 PM
Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 5


Very funny anonymous! Young Captains have it made these days don't they! The boats are so much easier to operate and navigate and manage and what not. Thrusters and stabilizers and GPS and fantastic electronics and plotters and radars and communication devices and on and on and on. Its also seems unfair that young Captains these days can just open their laptops and instantly they are weather experts! Sheesh! So why not hire a 30 year old good looking young buck? Frankly there would be more jobs for us older "experienced" Captains were it not for all of the above mentioned new devices that diminish the need for our experience. Anyway thats what I think! But then again, what do I know?
Captain David Hare
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:43 AM
Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 1


When confronted by "The Aging Factor" in yachting, I took my decades of experience to Chouest and have had a remarkable ride in the commercial world; now as an Anchor Ship Captain, I find my skills and wisdom appreciated and handsomely rewarded. My adage, "When One Door Closes, Ten Doors Open". Captain David Hare
Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:55 AM
I am a 41 year old captain of a 42 meter yacht 22 years in yachting, and I hate the thought of what happens 10 years from now. My father is 62 and not running boats anymore and cant find any work for the last year. Our industry is not taking care of our own and we need to start- everyone ages- we will all get old hopefully. Stewardess' in our industry have it the worst- I dont hire over 30 due to the busy charter season here in the Med.
Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:09 PM

Last anonymous poster: do you not see the irony in what you wrote? all sounded great until you wrote you don't hire stews over 30...seriously?

30-something year-olds who are fit have the same energy level as the 20-year-olds, and likely don't party as much - so would have more!


Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:09 PM
Anonymous wrote:
I am a 41 year old captain of a 42 meter yacht 22 years in yachting, and I hate the thought of what happens 10 years from now. My father is 62 and not running boats anymore and cant find any work for the last year. Our industry is not taking care of our own and we need to start- everyone ages- we will all get old hopefully. Stewardess' in our industry have it the worst- I dont hire over 30 due to the busy charter season here in the Med.

 

Why should we hire you then? I mean, wow...30....is.....the new elderly?? Idiot????

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Why people like you are born and bred into this world is beyond ME.


Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:01 PM

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Whilst I value the knowledge and experience of the older crew member they sometimes feel that taking the towels out of the drier or filling an ice bucket is not their job!. Todays yacht with its thrusters/stabilisers/electronic chart equipment and modern machinery is a far safer/easier boat to run, this is so we can provide our guests with the best possible service. This creates an environment best suited to the 'younger' captain who understands the needs of the guests/owner and all of the technology onboard.

[Content edited by moderator for breaking forum guidelines]


Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:09 PM
Dont know the charter industry, never worked on a charter boat.. What I observe on charter yachts is bad vibes, mystery owners, Cayman Flags, stressful conditions of employment , agents, management, high crew turnover , dealing with strange people and weird requests . This requires a young crew who will do anything for a buck. On private yachts age is not really a big factor... I regularly have 40 year old stewardess working and at 40 they are much younger than me or my guests !!! All around me are 50 to 55 year old captains happily running private yachts. . Young kids are OK but they seldom provide any simulating conversation for my guests and tend to stumble when situations requires maturity to solve. This is particularly true with stewardess' or customer service crew. Oh ..... that NE surge from the Gregale is obnoxious in Malta...Lazaretto Creek in the past was almost untenable at times.
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 12:05 AM
Like most jobs around the world, at 60+ you need to retire. If you don't have the means for this, whose fault is that. We get paid real well with no expenses. On another note, most people at that age have a chip on there shoulder and feel like they don't need to do anything else but dock the boat. So why should you be paid for a third of the work as a young captain has to show.
junior
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 1:38 PM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Some of You posters have a chip on your shoulder tilted towards the original poster. To many personal attacks by a bunch of Anonymous immature stinkpot wipers. . Think before you speak... and you missed that water spot.........wipe it again. ""So why should you be paid for a third of the work as a young captain has to show."" That's easy Mr Anon...as a young wise guy still in diapers you know nothing, have to consult SHOWBOAT MAGAZINE for operational advice then pay a half dozen AGENTS commission to solve your dilemma,......every task takes you three times to long and requires three times too much cash to accomplish.... Flopping around like a fish on the dock with your captains hat and mobile phone is no excuse for hard work. Its a wonder any owner would pay for it...
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 5:15 PM
Lucky as heck here 58 and the owners call me "the kids" as they are in thier 80's....smaller boats with older owners are the answer for us geezers. Your going to have to downsize is the catch. Smaller boat for older crew means your going to be going to sleep right after the owners do (at 815) from sheer exhaustion. But even their kids are in their 50's so there are not the usual late night potato cannon fights with marine police in Maine and all night benders aboard like in the old days. Unfortunately most of us at this age are working because were not lucky enough to have rich parents if any parents at all. I'm still going strong and it's a good time to have even a bad job. I tend to hire older stews as it's a better fit for the older owners.......I loved the Sis W with the total wheel chair access for the old owners.
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:07 PM
I have been involved now in sailing for 35 years, longer than most pro sailors today have been alive. I read a few messages further up the list that pissed me off. Todays sailors lack seamanship, the modern boat could sail the pond without anybody going on deck, e-mails, movies etc etc. I have great memories of crossing the pond, sextant, Mary Blueitts (astro nav made simple ) netting from the deck head to keep stuff freshish, eggs in vasaline, tiller all the way, nobody in the world know where we were, and when we got there, their was a great sence of acheivement.
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, January 28, 2010 9:41 PM
Just remember, Gentlemen, that it is all apart of life. My Grandmother remembers a world without TV and I am sure I will be saying the same things when I am a little older about the younger generation and the new "advancements" in technology. Christ, young kids today already forgot how to spell and use handwriting. We are all just a little behind. Some try to catch up, others just give up and tell stories...when i was your age.......i am sure we have all heard that. Soon it will be your turn to start stories off with those words. Respectfully, Anon
junior
Posted: Friday, January 29, 2010 6:18 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


It might also be educational for you young guys to be reminded how the yacht industry evolved over the past 30 years. 30 years ago there were dozens of big crewed yachts...today there are hundreds...thousands..... of crewed yachts. Any crew who entered the industry 30 years ago has had to make a living in this small world in which wages and benefits were minor compared to today's bloated paychecks. The statement ... "You should have saved enough money by now to retire at 60 years old " shows a lack of understanding of the marine industry. I can count on one hand the number of captains I know who have been able to retire off yacht earning after 30 years working in this very temperamental business. And yes...I see Mary Bewitts celestial navigation book duct taped together, wedged into the corner of my bookshelf. Is that Mt Pico's Morse code identifier I hear in the background ?
14Freedom
Posted: Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:24 AM
Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 155


FU@%!!!

The guy is obviously talented... this forum seems to be taking turns with my own. Age/Sex/Nationality/Gay or Bi or Straight CRAP!!!

FU to all you newbies who think you have all the answers...when the SH#* hits the fan you are responsible.

Hire EXPERIENCE.

ATB-
The Slacker

Anonymous
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:37 AM
Greetings All,

I am a 38 year old fit female. I am planning to start a career as a stew in the fall of 2010. As I may be a newbie, I am  not inexperienced...I have 10+ years in the hospitality industry including fine dining restaurant management as well as a  VIP Member Manager for a major North American MLB Baseball team. My son is off to college in the fall and I am seriously considering a minimum 3-5 year career as a stewardess...hopefully working my way up to a chief stew position.

My question is...do I have a chance??
Included in my skill set are culinary, bartending and nanny skills...I am not into the party scene, I am very outgoing, fun and easy to be around. I take pride in my work, don't mind long hours, meticulous with details, and have been awarded by my employer for going above and beyond the call of duty in customer service consistently. I am not a slacker looking to travel on someone else dime. I am interested in proving myself to be a valuable member in the industry.

So again, being 38 years old...do I have a chance of obtaining employment?

Thanks in advance for your input!!

runningoutofusernameideas
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 2:35 AM
Joined: 07/11/2009
Posts: 16


Ms 38,

I don't think I would hire you simply because based on what I've read, you seem both cocky and desperate. Not a good combo. Your age should not be that big of a deal (heaven forbid all us "elderly" folks compared to prepubescent folks all over the biz..ew), but even if you behaved more professionally, you might end up getting jobs that a lot of people would  not want...that and agents (no matter how bad they look, Jesus) will pass you over for younger and "prettier" stewardesses depending on the yacht and size.  [content removed by moderator] 

ATP,

The Slacker

 

PS: I'm kidding- I'm not the slacker. But I am slacking off right now.


MissD
Posted: Friday, March 12, 2010 5:21 AM
Joined: 05/03/2010
Posts: 1


Dear runningoutof...

I appreciate your feedback. I am in no way cocky or desperate. Quite the opposite. I was merely trying to give enough information to warrant an informed response based on my credentials. My professional experience is what gives me confidence and mentioning my appearance is attributed to the way that the industry handles females.
I am Canadian...we are not a cocky bunch.
 
Thanks for your opinion.
Best regards.

Henning
Posted: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:35 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1053


runningoutofusernameideas wrote:

Ms 38,

I don't think I would hire you simply because based on what I've read, you seem both cocky and desperate. Not a good combo. Your age should not be that big of a deal (heaven forbid all us "elderly" folks compared to prepubescent folks all over the biz..ew), but even if you behaved more professionally, you might end up getting jobs that a lot of people would  not want...that and agents (no matter how bad they look, Jesus) will pass you over for younger and "prettier" stewardesses depending on the yacht and size.  [content removed by moderator] 

ATP,

The Slacker

 

PS: I'm kidding- I'm not the slacker. But I am slacking off right now.



[content removed by moderator] If she's dealt with VIPs for a MLB team, I'd at least give her an interview and see how she reacted to the reality of "beds and heads".

14Freedom
Posted: Saturday, March 13, 2010 5:47 AM
Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 155


Hey All,

[content removed by moderator]

Get a grip all, it's not about our age, what we run, but about the ocean we run on.

It's  ABOUT BEING ABOUT WHO WE ARE!!!     GET IT YET?  Power/Sail...Charter/Private...WHO REALLY CARES AS LONG AS WE DO WHAT WE LOVE IN A PROFESSIONAL MANNER?

If not, your are barking up the wrong  ___  (fill in the last blank if you may.)

ATB-
The Slacker



junior
Posted: Saturday, March 13, 2010 9:13 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Direct your attention towards private yachts. Age is not so important on private yachts, captains, owners and guests seem to be more secure and don't need to impress the neighbors with a flock of young hooters stewardesses. Were age holds a crew back is the level of personal responsibility they've inevitably built into their lives. Seems every time I hire a mature crew all sorts of private matters come up which require their attention. Their body is on the boat, but thier head is one thousand miles away. Young crew have no personal responsibilities, so I can pretty much count on owning 100 percent of their time. Id suggest that you impress upon the person interviewing you that you are indeed " truly free. " Also remember that the social scene around yachts is dominated by youth. You may grow tired of heading out every night and getting smashed with the kids .
Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:17 PM
Hi, I am relatively new to the yachting industry (only since Feb 2010) but I very quickly learned (only after 2 weeks) that it's not only qualifications that keep a new comer back, a big part is also age. I have a lot of years, experience and knowledge as a mariner and have the quals to back it up. About the qualifications, everyone should read the March 2010 issue of DOCKWALK magazine, page 47. About the age discrimination subject, let me tell you. I live in Southern France so I signed up to every agency that I could find between Marseilles and Nice; even one in Spain. Time consuming but easily done. I was ONLY trying to get hired as a deckhand and money was not an issue. To get the YACHT experience everyone seems to desire, just a fair wage would be fine with me for a couple of seasons. But there was another obstacle in front of me, being over 30! One agent told me that it would be very difficult but not impossible. Another told me that the Capt of a yacht I was requesting to work on was only 35 yrs old and did not want anyone older than he was on the crew. An agent in Spain actually told me that my age would be a disadvantage. I said that that was bordering on age discrimination and she agreed. But, she also told me that the captains and owners get away with it so they don't care. Some agency's (one in particular but I mention it here) also use age as a factor in choosing whose CV they will send to the decision maker on the yacht. Why DO they want you birth-date at the very top of your CV? Why DO they want your picture on your CV? That could lead to race discrimination if they do not like what they see. I'll bet you that their computers delete button or their shredder gets a lot of use. Can someone please tell me what kind of industry yachting is?
captcct
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:10 PM
Joined: 28/02/2010
Posts: 18


Dear Anonymous: because pretty boats require pretty crew when you pull up into the marina to make the pretty guests feel special. Now, in all my years, I have found that experience, real knowledge and respect goes a long way - regardless of your age. That certainly applies to private yachts. I'm 59 going on 29 and have more of the above and spunk to prove it than the daft young wannabe's out there. Sorry for being frank about it. I say again, as I have elsewhere, work hard, work smart, work harder, work smarter and do not forget to keep learning (oh! and for a captain, learn to use a sextant, you do know what one of those strange things are!? (LOL) as one day a satellite or two might just go on the brink and you then kiss goodbye to your GPS co-ordinates - what you going to do then youngsters? Did you not read about the US submarine whose sonar and co-ordinates were not looked at and ended up getting a very nasty repair bill. Youth! Sheesh. Be it the crew, or the owner or whomever... respect age to a reasonable degree - that way you might actually get across the horizon instead of plonking along on an intercoastal waterway.
captcct
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:17 PM
Joined: 28/02/2010
Posts: 18


For Freedom14: No one will hire a foul mouthed person as you display here in code!! Yachting does have class. And it's first class. Have some etiquette and manners. When you get some real sea / ocean miles under your belt then you will change your tune.
Henning
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 7:18 PM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1053


 Age isn't so much a problem when you are applying for positions commensurate with your age as well.When people in their late 30s and above are applying for entry level positions, it leads to the question "Why?", especially if as you state, ". I have a lot of years, experience and knowledge as a mariner and have the quals to back it up." Why would you be looking for a job as a deckhand? You should be looking for a position as a deck officer or engineer with "a lot of years of experience and knowledge". So when someone questions the "why" of it, what is your response?

junior
Posted: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 7:56 PM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Sure Henning ,you can have experience, be "old", and still be an entry level deckhand. If you would like Ill introduce you to a retired police officer, 44 years old, nice guy, fit, smart, messed around with small boats his whole life and he is now looking to get some yacht seatime, his foot in the door, for a second career. I can also introduce you to a 50 something deckhand,....vast 20 years experience worldwide on yachts , but during his working life he must devote 60 percent of his time to operating a family owned wintersports buisness. He sails as a summer season crew, on the best yachts, simply because he likes it and it keeps him busy. Every person is different...everyone has a different resume and a unique reason to sail yachts.
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:31 PM
I have a two part response. This part is for captcct: I learned how to navigate and to figure course/speed and cpa the old way. I've been through two hurricanes and have sailed across the Atlantic 4 times and end to end in the Med countless times. I'm in good shape and I can keep up with the youngest of them...BUT.... I do not have that deck time on a YACHT. And, by the way, I just got off the phone with a major agency and she (they always seem to be female) told me that the I could have worked out on several jobs but the Capt's are very specific as to the age they want. One Capt made it clear that he needed a Bosun and NOT over 29 years old! This next part is for Henning: She also told me that at my age I should be applying for OOW or Mate positions. Well, I do have the knowledge for both but I do not have that sacred time on a YACHT! That's what they want. Sure, I can explain why I am putting in for a deckhand position but how can you if you can never see the Captains? The agency's control that unless you see them on the docks, which, because of my location, makes it a bit difficult.
Henning
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:54 PM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1053


Anonymous wrote:
 This next part is for Henning: She also told me that at my age I should be applying for OOW or Mate positions. Well, I do have the knowledge for both but I do not have that sacred time on a YACHT! That's what they want. Sure, I can explain why I am putting in for a deckhand position but how can you if you can never see the Captains? The agency's control that unless you see them on the docks, which, because of my location, makes it a bit difficult.


"Yacht Time" is not as sacred as you are making it out to be. I went directly from captain on commercial vessels to captain on yachts. There are actually owners out there who appreciate the experience and the fact that I can get on the boat and just drive the thing in close quarters and adverse conditions with no stress and no worries. You don't generally learn that on yachts because you don't do enough of it. Apply for the positions that you are qualified for as a mariner and learn the "fluff". Learning how to run a chamois really isn't that difficult. As for agents, if I had to rely on them, I'd never work. www.findacrew.net puts you directly in touch with owners and captains, costs a few bucks for premium membership but is worth it if you're actively looking. As for doing the dockwalk, dude, you get no sympathy here, bite the bullet and go where the work is or quit whining.

captcct
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:56 PM
Joined: 28/02/2010
Posts: 18


Anonymous... here's a heads up for you: stop being anonymous. Be yourself, be true to yourself and others. Age, as far as I know, if you have the knowledge and experience is never a factor. As far as private yachts go, owners prefer someone with those qualities. Never though make out that you are worldly unless you actually can prove it. That applies for charter or commercial. BTW worldly is not just having done a few days stint, or so, somewhere. I had a mate that informed me of his grand experience (at the tender age of 26) and he lasted a few days. As a captain, I have gotten on my bended knees to scrub the decks, sand the decks to restore them to golden color, and in 90F degrees. His attitude was that he was the mate and he shouldn't have to do such when asked. BTW I was thirty years older than him. So, you youngsters out there, here's a clue... get a clue! As for all the preposterous comments by junior... pleeeze!! go get a life, as yachting is obviously not your scene.
kapt_mark
Posted: Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:10 PM
Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 82


as an unregulated "industry" as far as taxes and fair working conditiond (ie not getting screwed over for wages) yachting has its fair share of ageism, sexism and racism. boo hoo. i have not been a victim of discrimination but have certainly lost 1000sover the years in unpaid wages. the one guy i know who did something about it, never saw his money and lost 4 times more on lawyers, they with pockets or even deep pockets tend to win these cases, delays, counter claims etc... etc...
seaworthy
Posted: Friday, April 30, 2010 2:47 PM
Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 2


Henning, first off, I don't whine. I work with facts not fiction; proof not hypothesis. Just open up your eyes and you'll see it. Yachting is ripe with discrimination and people like you just ignore it and think others are just complaining. It's a valid complaint and illegal by the way. Oh, if you really want some "whine" then go grab some cheese and a baguette because if you can't see what's really going then your out to lunch!
captcct
Posted: Friday, April 30, 2010 11:09 PM
Joined: 28/02/2010
Posts: 18


Quite honestly... it is not worthwhile responding to the puerile rubbish from some comments here. And, even it seems from whom I believe to be rather despondent sad individuals. I guess they just were not made out to be in the nautical world.
Henning
Posted: Saturday, May 1, 2010 12:16 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1053


seaworthy wrote:
Henning, first off, I don't whine. I work with facts not fiction; proof not hypothesis. Just open up your eyes and you'll see it. Yachting is ripe with discrimination and people like you just ignore it and think others are just complaining. It's a valid complaint and illegal by the way. Oh, if you really want some "whine" then go grab some cheese and a baguette because if you can't see what's really going then your out to lunch!


Where did I say the discrimination doesn't exist? I've dealt with plenty of it being an American and coming out of the commercial sector. I know exactly what you are talking about with crew agents, I dealt with the same thing. Realize the majority of crew agents are ex-stews who needed a way to stay on land to have babies while still milking the yacht industry. They have absolutely no idea what your experience or qualifications mean in the real world. What I did was find my way around all of them directly to the owners, and that means I needed to know the websites the OWNERS advertise on, and I gave you a prime one, captains advertise there as well. I have picked up the majority of my work from there over the last few years. You also need to be where the industry is. There is nothing that replaces dockwalking and day working for getting known and accepted in the industry, nothing, it is the basis that forms yacht crew networking. So does living in crew houses in the areas where the boats are. It also puts you into a position to meet brokers who also have a hand in getting crew in front of owners.

I'm assuming that you are the OP to this line, and good on you for ending your anonymity, but if you are solely basing the future of your career on crew agents, you are only putting forth 1/10th of the effort required to actually get somewhere in this business, and if you are not willing to go where the boats and industry are, you will most likely fail, and it's not purely a discrimination issue, it's a lack of effort issue. If you try hard enough and persist, you will overcome the discrimination that exists, but it's up to you to do it, not a crew agent.

junior
Posted: Saturday, May 1, 2010 9:50 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Hey seaworthy..... Ive Got a suggestion. Just as Henning indicated, Crew Agents are the least professional side of the marine industry. You will end up pump'n mud, swimming upstream thru a sea of hair gel while dodging skateboards . . The professional service providers to yachts are contractors. Many times, for older crew , the fastest way to get on a yacht as crew is via the contractor backdoor. When I need a sailor I wander by the rigging contractor and ask if he knows any guys. If you were in say Lauderdale, I would recommend taking a refit season "helper" position with an engineering service provider..., rigging, tenders, safety equipment, refrigeration, hydraulic gangway, water maker, electronics....instantly you will be on variaety of yachts working and while working you will have direct access to the yachts engineer, crew and captain... You will also see first hand what crew skill short coming the yacht has and be able to morph your resume to suit conditions. Additioally Ive never met an engineer that was 25 years old and Ive never met an Engineer who didnt wish he had an extra guy around to lend a hand and get that tender or dive gear in order.....Crew who need a hand are the ones who will put in a good word for you.
Scrtangel2
Posted: Monday, February 13, 2012 3:24 AM
Joined: 26/01/2012
Posts: 2


That's a touchy subject. As a 43 year old woman entering the industry, I know plenty of young people who couldnt get out of a box as well as many my own age and older. This needs to be very case by case. Having never been a drinker or partier, it's paying off in health for me! So I certainly hope I never hear, antime soon, that Im "old". Never confuse "old" with "lazy". There are responsible & smart 20 & 50 year olds & ones you just wanna chuck overboard at the next wave. Whoever is doing the hiring just needs to decide what they want in a staff and not be concerned with age. Stick to the rules & be firm. If the Captain doesnt care if his staff crawls in drunk & oversleeps that's on him/her. Oh, and this new aging generation, we ain't ya grammas OLD. We're skydiving at 75.
 
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