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What would you do....?
Henning
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 1:28 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Since my question in another thread has been lost in a s-t fight of nationalistic prides and insults, I thought I might post it to stand on its own. Glad to see you made it back Deb, because this one is for you as well...

 

Now, I'll repost a question which got deleted with Debbies post for her, 14F and such...: Lets say you got that job on a foriegn flag boat and you're in Ft Lauderdale. Some British, Russian, South African, Aussie....pick a non-US nationality, is doing the dockwalk and your captain/owner decides to hire her. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to complain to them? Are you going to call immigrations on them which will lead to the boat getting arrested and you losing your job as well? Will you stand by your principles at the cost of your job (and most likely any future in this field)?


ablonde
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 3:18 AM
Joined: 24/08/2008
Posts: 8


It's a pretty sorry state of affairs that some American yachties have used their nationality as an excuse for their inability to get and/or maintain a job in this business. It's ugly, it's pathetic, and sadly because of the long reach of the internet it reflects poorly on Americans in general. It is a pity that nationalism and xenophobia have become so prevalent on this forum. Someone who didn't know better might read this and come to the conclusion that Americans truly are jerks and decide NOT TO HIRE THEM based on what they have read here. I may be unusual in that traveling all over the world and making an effort to experience the life and culture wherever I happened to be was a lifestyle that I was raised in. It was what attracted me to yachting in the first place. It certainly wasn't the money. I loved boats, sailing, being on the water, meeting new people, working hard, traveling and experiencing things that most people only dream of. Meeting and working with people from other countries was a plus. I never felt like my Americanness precluded being hired for any job, but then again I would be interested to know that the chef was from Burgundy, or the Captain was Dutch, these were all pluses for me. When times are tough and the jobs are scarce those who would not have been hired as the "first choice" back in the busy days suddenly find themselves not hirable at all. Rather than some heavy duty self examination they blame the competition for their own failings. They are not being hired for reasons more painful than their nationality. The truth hurts. As to your WWYD question, anyone who would be so brutus-like and ungrateful as to be a hired crewman who would go ahead and rat out the yacht, the captain and the owner with their misquided holier than thou principles deserves to never work on a yacht again. It's about as low as it gets in my opinion. There used to be a brotherhood of the sea, WTF!
Henning
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 3:44 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Now blondie, just stop it, your post does nothing to answer my question, nor by the sounds of it are you eligible to answer it since you aren't one of the people complaining. If you want to start your own little monkey feces throwing thread, please do so, elsewhere. I have posted a serious question and would like honest serious considered answers. By the way, Americans are no different in nationalistic protectionism of jobs than anyone else in the world, and "jerk" knows no national boundaries either. I deal with Jerks all over the world, I also deal with good people all over the world.
ablonde
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 6:17 AM
Joined: 24/08/2008
Posts: 8


You're so picky Henning! And what's this about monkey feces?? I think you're taking things too far. Where am I going to find monkey poop? It's not like I'm living in bloody Gibraltar.
Henning
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 7:52 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


ablonde wrote:
You're so picky Henning! And what's this about monkey feces?? I think you're taking things too far. Where am I going to find monkey poop? It's not like I'm living in bloody Gibraltar.


 

Not my problem, but Panama is a good place to look...


junior
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 8:07 AM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Well Henning the theoretical situation may and has happened to me. I don't much care for the boss hiring crew but since I'm an employee, I grit my teeth and get on with it. The secret to avoiding the furious zenophobic monkey poop throwing that happened in the other thread is to consciously give preference to local crew. If whats available locally does not suit your requirements then by all means hire a crew that does regardless of nationality.
14Freedom
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 3:17 PM
Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 155


Hey Henning,
That is quite the dilemma...with quite a few variables involved.

As the question is stated (minus the variables), I wouldn't "complain". I would express concern to the Captain/Owner that they are putting themselves and the vessel at risk. ALL Captains (as owners agents) should be aware of the laws (or at least protocols) of the country they are cruising in. If they do not they are putting everything/everyone at risk. Igorance is not a defense.Of course, I would be putting myself at risk as being a malcontent or worse. But personally, I would not be at risk for any legal action. I would hope that what was said would be taken as constructive criticism...other than that I would continue to do my job.

Illegal activity is illegal activity. There are different degrees...if the owner/Capt. were smuggling dope? Guns? Liquor? Immigrants? Cigars? Once again, IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NOT A DEFENSE. At least in the USA you have the right to remain silent, the right to legal counsel and are presumed innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers...not to mention "plea bargain".

"Dropping a dime" is not my style. It implies anonymity. I put my name on whatever is good as well as whatever is not.

Probably raised more questions in trying to answer yours.

ATB-
Dan





Henning
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 7:30 PM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


14Freedom wrote:
Hey Henning,
That is quite the dilemma...with quite a few variables involved.

As the question is stated (minus the variables), I wouldn't "complain". "Dropping a dime" is not my style. It implies anonymity. I put my name on whatever is good as well as whatever is not.

Probably raised more questions in trying to answer yours.

ATB-
Dan
 
Thank you Dan, no, I believe you answered quite succinctly.






14Freedom
Posted: Sunday, November 8, 2009 9:42 PM
Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 155


Hey Henning,
I'm surprised that when you quoted my reply you did not include:

ALL Captains (as owners agents) should be aware of the laws (or at least protocols) of the country they are cruising in. If they do not they are putting everything/everyone at risk.
and
Ignorance is not a defense.

ATB-
Dan

Henning
Posted: Monday, November 9, 2009 1:01 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


14Freedom wrote:
Hey Henning,
I'm surprised that when you quoted my reply you did not include:

ALL Captains (as owners agents) should be aware of the laws (or at least protocols) of the country they are cruising in. If they do not they are putting everything/everyone at risk.
and
Ignorance is not a defense.

ATB-
Dan
 
It wasn't my concern with the question, nor would that effect you since you aren't looking for a captains position.


Lacey
Posted: Monday, November 9, 2009 9:34 PM
Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 6


Henning, Thank you for starting a 'new' topic which really gets to the essence of it...The other forum which I did add a post or 2, really did get out of hand with side topics. Reality Folks...These are TOUGH WORLDWIDE economics times for everyone in & outside the yachting world. Instead of blaming things that you cannot control, buckle down, keep your chin up, AND most importantly keep the negative attitudes away. A positive attitude will take you far whether in be in yachting OR life in general. Besides yachting is an International community which is what attracts most crew in the 1st place. Back to the original point...With such an asset as a private vessel, I believe most capts & owners & employers as whole would consider the legal ramifications. AND maybe, the individual being hired has some talent/skill/ or paperwork that you know nothing about, and is quite frankly none of your business! Sorry for the long reply...I find job hunting exhausting, but there is always hope (gotta believe) ps My info is on the site if anyone knows of anything! never hurts, as you never know who might be reading what!
Anonymous
Posted: Monday, November 9, 2009 11:07 PM
Maybe it is time to eliminate VICTIM thinking...BLAMING...PROCRASTINATION!!! Sorry I'm doing this anonymously.
Henning
Posted: Monday, November 9, 2009 11:37 PM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Anonymous wrote:
Maybe it is time to eliminate VICTIM thinking...BLAMING...PROCRASTINATION!!! Sorry I'm doing this anonymously.

Then why would you do something you're sorry for before you even did it? BTW, not disagreeing with your statement, but how does the above address my question? The question is a simple straight forward one seeking only an honest answer. It is addressed to those that are pointing out that they are not getting employment because others are acting in an illegal manner. There are no right or wrong answers to the question, there is nothing to debate or argue. Just a simple answer to a simple question. Not jumping on you, just trying to keep the thread on topic and keep it from being an inflamatory s-t fight.
Lacey
Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:13 AM
Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 6


I was apologizing for clicking the anon box...What I was really saying is that fingering someone out usuall y backfires (Yes, I believe in Karma). My point is that there are all kinds of reasons below the surface that as a fellow crewmember you may not be aware of when a Capt. employs an individual. I guess I am saying that it is better to mind yourself, rather than jumping to conclusions. It is something to consider BEFORE you call INS or whatever agency.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 12:54 AM
What is legal anyhow? Who stays? Who goes? Who is left? Why bother starting that storm cloud?
14Freedom
Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 2:58 AM
Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 155


So Henning,

Answer your own question....What would you do...?
as a Captain or as crew.

ATB-
Dan

Henning
Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:44 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


14Freedom wrote:
So Henning,

Answer your own question....What would you do...?
as a Captain or as crew.

ATB-
Dan

What I would do is immaterial, I am not one who is complaining about the issue. However, what I do is find the person I want to hire and send them through the process required to make it legal. Typically when operating in the US I hire an American.
Henning
Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 5:49 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Anonymous wrote:
What is legal anyhow? Who stays? Who goes? Who is left? Why bother starting that storm cloud?

That first question would lead most any reader to respond with the question, "Are you high, or just incredibly stupid." What is legal is whatever is dictated under the laws of the land that you currently occupy, and any other regulations dictated by the State of the flag under which you operate, and then there are more laws dictated by IMO/UN, which are enforced by both your flag state and the land who's jurisdiction you currently occupy.
Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 6:20 PM
I am an owner. My captain and I are Americans and the boat is US-flagged. While all of the hiring decisions are made by my captain, we will only hire US citizens, green card holders and other legal workers. The potential penalties for employers of illegal aliens are onerous and enforcement is becoming more aggressive by the day. It's not worth the risk. 
Fifty-Meter Flavor
Posted: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:53 PM
Joined: 29/09/2009
Posts: 13


Yachting is an international industry. I don't think it is possible to force yachts of a foreign registry to adhere to the hiring practices of a country which it is technically visiting. For example, I don't think anyone would be too pleased if they had a crew member quit, get fired, go home sick (pick a reason) in the Bahamas, St. Maarten (pick any port with a small local pool proffesional yachties) and then being required to only hire a local since they are in that country and a local law requires them to only hire a local. I'd think twice before trying to set a precedent which may ultimately back-fire. So to your point, Henning, I worry more about whether a crew member would do the job right and be a good fit with the rest of the crew long before I would worry about the motives of local legislators who don't fully understand the complexity of a career on a yacht.
junior
Posted: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 5:39 PM
Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 1026


Hmm ? Fifty meter flavour, you are struggling to justify the " do as I please hiring practices" employed by flags of convenience.. No one is forcing you to do anything...the marine industry only asks you to favour local crew so that the local infrastructure can ,in the future , breed the crew you need. Additionaly, I'm sure you're aware that in Ft lauderdale a Californian is just as local as a Floridian. Just as in StMartin a yacht would have access to plenty of Schengen crew. May I remind you that Dean, Bongo, Billy , Mike, , Paul, Cedrik, Jimmy, Paul, Tiny,..... are all Caribbean crew who proved their worth on yachts. When you operate on your clouded, narrow, mindset and refuse to seek these people out for tasks that they are qualified for, you are guilty of retarding the growth of yacht crew in the areas you find not to your personal fifty metre tastes
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:51 AM
The legal status for crew changes each time the geographical location of the yacht changes. I am fortunate enough to be a dual citizen and have the legal right to work in the USA, Australia, New Zealand and their territories. I regularly cruise the Mediterranean with yachts and never have a problem with immigration and doubt other crew will either. If my European crewmates wanted to call immigration down to the boat and check my EU work permit I would struggle, because I don’t have a legal right to work in the EU. So does this mean I can or should blow the whistle on my crewmates when we are in the USA? If you enter and leave a country with a yacht sailing under a flag of convenience you’re pretty safe. Whether this is exactly true or I don’t know? Nevertheless I am absolutely sure that if your living in a crew house dock walking and/or day-working without a valid work permits you are breaking the law. If immigration was serious about the illegal worker issue associated with yachts half of the industry would collapse. Crew uniforms, crew agents, crew accommodation, crew medical insurance, crew travel agents and so on. Does yachting as an industry want this?
Jennifer
Posted: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:41 AM
Joined: 30/07/2008
Posts: 4


I am an American. I have to tell you. Most of the people I have met that have problems with this issue, are people who have other issues keeping them from being employeed. Even in this economy there are plenty of yachts to go around for skilled, hard working, pleasant crew. On any flagged yacht. Personally, I think a foreign flagged vessel has the right to crew their boats the way they see fit. U.S. flagged vessels have to hire American crew. What is the problem? Ten to one, if a yacht does not want a person or any particular nationality, for whatever reason, why would you want to be here. I have found in both this industry and after 15 years in hotels and restaurants, from management to chef, that my fellow Americans think they are better than a lot of the work they are required to do and demand more than what their work is worth. I do not say that proudly. I wish I could say differently. If anyone thinks that the government, coast guard, customs, immigration does not know that crew from other countries are here, working, staying in crew houses, getting jobs with crew agencies, you are dreaming. I can not tell you how many times in Sag Harbor, Fort Lauderdale and even Nantucket the caost guard has come to do the dock walk on every yacht and check their papers, crew papers, saftely equipment, etc. Stop being naive and take a little self responsibility if you are having issues getting a job. Yes people break rules, nothing new, move on. Good luck to everyone and have a fun safe winter season where ever you are.

Jennifer


German but nice
Posted: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:27 PM
Joined: 01/10/2008
Posts: 4


Ever! Certainly! Immediately!
What a question. The safety of the investment of the boss has to be the first priority for professional crew.
Because when you protect the boat in the best way, you protect also your job and income. And what is more important? Your friend or your income? And the other thing you shouldn't forget, the agency knows usually why you lost the job, and the industry is a small community! When an owner hears, that a friendship is more important for you, than the boat? Good night. All the best for all dockwalk.com users, where ever you are! Stefan


yachtone
Posted: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:45 PM
Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 96


Henning, you leave grey areas in your scenario, are you saying that the foreign flagged yacht is operating only in the US or is visiting for refit/r&r before heading of to cruise/charter elsewhere. In the scenario of a yacht remaining in the US a crew-member with a valid B1 visa should re-enter the country with documents of appointment , they are then legal.
        If the yacht is leaving shortly this is a pointless exercise & discussion.

Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:34 PM
Jennifer wrote:

I am an American. I have to tell you. Most of the people I have met that have problems with this issue, are people who have other issues keeping them from being employeed. Even in this economy there are plenty of yachts to go around for skilled, hard working, pleasant crew. On any flagged yacht. Personally, I think a foreign flagged vessel has the right to crew their boats the way they see fit. U.S. flagged vessels have to hire American crew. What is the problem? Ten to one, if a yacht does not want a person or any particular nationality, for whatever reason, why would you want to be here. I have found in both this industry and after 15 years in hotels and restaurants, from management to chef, that my fellow Americans think they are better than a lot of the work they are required to do and demand more than what their work is worth. I do not say that proudly. I wish I could say differently. If anyone thinks that the government, coast guard, customs, immigration does not know that crew from other countries are here, working, staying in crew houses, getting jobs with crew agencies, you are dreaming. I can not tell you how many times in Sag Harbor, Fort Lauderdale and even Nantucket the caost guard has come to do the dock walk on every yacht and check their papers, crew papers, saftely equipment, etc. Stop being naive and take a little self responsibility if you are having issues getting a job. Yes people break rules, nothing new, move on. Good luck to everyone and have a fun safe winter season where ever you are.

Jennifer

 

 

  For you as an American to legitimize any type of illegal employment by mentioning national flags is a detriment to yourself as well as hypocrisy. And for you to say, "aw, you're just mad because you've got other "issues"!" isn't very  smart or mature.  In this entire planet, there will always be people who speak out in what they believe is fair or an issue worth addressing...sometimes very inconveniently at least to some anyway.  Sometimes, when one speaks out, even if they've had job offers and pleasant work experiences, they face...oh what's that word...gosh it's on the tip of my tongue...hmm....oh right, RETALIATION.

Never under-estimate the power of ignorant and greedy people working as "gate keepers" in any industry. That is in every facet of life.  One person can not do it alone. Are you "listening" American yacht owners..charter guests??

I'm at Starbucks witnessing three foreign gals talking about getting charter yacht jobs (freelancing) next week.  They're laughing and one is talking about buying a new Fendi bag...that she can spend her day work or freelance money on that she made in the States. I think that's what she said, I couldn't understand her South African accent too clearly. You got that, ICE??



Jennifer
Posted: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:53 AM
Joined: 30/07/2008
Posts: 4


Well, it must be easy to from an anonymous point of view. Quite frankly, all you just said in your reply is that you are an angry, self centered, intolerent, not to mention rude, zealot. I have the right to my opinion and it was directed to no one person. Get off the soap box and if your are that mad, go do something about it. Talk is talk. And I am am done with you and others like you. Just wanted to say to those coming to the U.S., we are not all like this person and I hope to meet you on the docks!
Henning
Posted: Friday, November 13, 2009 2:40 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Anonymous wrote: For you as an American to legitimize any type of illegal employment by mentioning national flags is a detriment to yourself as well as hypocrisy. And for you to say, "aw, you're just mad because you've got other "issues"!" isn't very  smart or mature.  In this entire planet, there will always be people who speak out in what they believe is fair or an issue worth addressing...sometimes very inconveniently at least to some anyway.  Sometimes, when one speaks out, even if they've had job offers and pleasant work experiences, they face...oh what's that word...gosh it's on the tip of my tongue...hmm....oh right, RETALIATION.

Never under-estimate the power of ignorant and greedy people working as "gate keepers" in any industry. That is in every facet of life.  One person can not do it alone. Are you "listening" American yacht owners..charter guests??

I'm at Starbucks witnessing three foreign gals talking about getting charter yacht jobs (freelancing) next week.  They're laughing and one is talking about buying a new Fendi bag...that she can spend her day work or freelance money on that she made in the States. I think that's what she said, I couldn't understand her South African accent too clearly. You got that, ICE??


Deb, welcome to the thread, would you be so kind as to answer the original question, I'll restate it so you don't have to scroll up...

"If you were working on a foreign flag yacht, and there was someone hired on outside of the legal process, would you complain, specifically go to CBP/ICE and report what had happenned?"

 

Thanks


Henning
Posted: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 11:10 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Interesting result here. Since 5 days have passed since the last posting and 607 people have viewed this thread, only Dan has actually answered the question. That says a lot about the rest of the people who are complaining. For all the indignation shown about laws being violated, not one person would risk their own job in order to uphold such a law. It's easy to shout your convictions when you have nothing to lose, but it takes real character to risk what you have for what you believe is right in order to help others and protect a system. No one answered "Yes, I would risk my own job to see this injustice accounted for."... Well, I'm glad no one was dishonest at least.
14Freedom
Posted: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 8:53 PM
Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 155


Posted by me:

At least in the USA you have the right to remain silent, the right to legal counsel and are presumed innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers...not to mention "plea bargain".


and that goes whether you are legal or not.

ATB-
Dan
PS-I'll be in FTL in a couple of weeks. See you at (NOT) Waxy's!

Henning
Posted: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 9:03 PM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


14Freedom wrote:
Posted by me:

At least in the USA you have the right to remain silent, the right to legal counsel and are presumed innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers...not to mention "plea bargain".


and that goes whether you are legal or not.

True, but the other side to that coin is that in the absence of a statement, the jury may infer as they please. You may have the right to the fifth ammendment, but it doesn't necessarilly do you any good.
Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:10 PM
Jennifer wrote:
Well, it must be easy to from an anonymous point of view. Quite frankly, all you just said in your reply is that you are an angry, self centered, intolerent, not to mention rude, zealot. I have the right to my opinion and it was directed to no one person. Get off the soap box and if your are that mad, go do something about it. Talk is talk. And I am am done with you and others like you. Just wanted to say to those coming to the U.S., we are not all like this person and I hope to meet you on the docks!


 

 

I'm rude and a zealot? Sometimes. And your point is? You say that I'm angry,  I think you're confusing my zealousness and pride as being angry. And yes, I have EVERY right to feel proud over my take on this trumped up industry.  What sort of disturbs Americans like me is the severe lack of "clicking" in the minds of Americans like you.   You're welcoming ALL crew candidates to the docks...including illegal aliens who have no business "doing business" in the States?  You seem so proud to say that. Pretty lame, babe. What a zel -out.


Anonymous
Posted: Thursday, November 19, 2009 2:28 PM

just wondering, hope i'm not offending anyone when i ask this question:

if the majority of  candidates who were coming to the States to look for work on yachts (under the table) were Cubans and Haitans? how would you feel about that? thanks.


Henning
Posted: Sunday, November 22, 2009 11:01 AM
Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 1049


Anonymous wrote:

just wondering, hope i'm not offending anyone when i ask this question:

if the majority of  candidates who were coming to the States to look for work on yachts (under the table) were Cubans and Haitans? how would you feel about that? thanks.


Personally? It depends on the individual. I used to run humanitarian supplies (a powdered wheat/soy gruel mix from USAID)  to Port au Prince, If they can escape that hell hole, more power to them. I'd never begrudge a human being escape from that place. Lots of good people from both Haiti and Cuba, lots of bad ones too. You just have to weed between who is who. I have never been mistreated by the Cubans even in their territorial waters when running close ashore to tuck in on weather shore, and have flown small planes through their airspace heading to Grand Cayman and was handled with nothing but professional courtesy. I have fled Port au Prince without a clearance when the mortars and belt fed machine gun fire got a few blocks from the port one time. I really don't see much relevance to your question though. Are Cubans and Hatians supposed to be better or worse than Europeans, Australians and South Africans? What about Indians, Phillipinos, Maylay and Indonesians? Where do Russians, Japanese, Polish and Moldavians stand in ranking? How about Nigerians?  Talk about another cess-pit... would you hide your checkbook? Besides, once a Cuban is "feet dry" in the US, he made it. With Cubans it's like a game of tag-cum-red rover with the tide line dictating "Home Safe". However, quite a few people have died playing this game.
 
 Average 3 out of 5