Welcome to the Dockwalk.com Forum

 

In order to post a comment in one of the forum topics, you must log in or sign up. Your display name will appear next to your posts unless you check the Post Anonymously box. When writing a post, please follow our forum guidelines. If you come across a post that you would like us to review, use the Report Post button. Please note the opinions shared in the forums do not necessarily reflect the views of Dockwalk.


RSS Feed Print
Expiration dates on RYA certificates
cancook
Posted: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:03 PM
Joined: 26/09/2008
Posts: 8


I have a question regarding expiration dates on RYA certificates...I completed my Powerboat Level 2 in Fuengirola, Spain in spring of 2010.  Due to the RYA Med Sea School in Palma 'misplacing' my Certificate of Competence application money and only sending the form to the RYA in the UK, it took me 1.5 years to finally receive the certificate.  It arrived, and I find myself with a 'Certificate for Operator of Pleasure Craft' which expires in 5 years time. 

So the question:  why do some certificates have expiration dates on them, and from other places such as (IYT) my Personal Watercraft Operations Cert does not?

I must say, that having to chase up a certificate with the RYA for 1.5 years was less than desirable and I certainly will not be going to re-certify with them in future as this is far from professional.  They are a certification and training association, but they forget that when a person must pay and take time off in order to get qualifications, it makes those people a CUSTOMER of the RYA, and as such, there are other options out there for obtaining qualifications.  My experience was less than satisfactory and I will not be giving them my money in the future.

Has anyone else had these same sort of dealings?  Any suggestions on whether I can get this certificate changed out without re-doing the course?

Anonymous
Posted: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:26 PM
Can cook, may I suggest you email the RYA directly. The website can be found via Google .... and they will answer you in one or two days! Hope this helps??
cancook
Posted: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 5:28 PM
Joined: 26/09/2008
Posts: 8


Hi Anon,  yes, I have done that.  It has taken 1.5 YEARS of emails just to get the damn license in the first place...sense my frustration... 

proskipper
Posted: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:36 PM
Joined: 01/04/2010
Posts: 15


What sea school. Tickets don't expire, they fade away. Replacements don't need exams.
Linda @ Aigua Sea School
Posted: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:28 AM
Joined: 03/06/2011
Posts: 9


The RYA Powerboat Level II course completion certificate does not expire. Are you referring to the commercial endorsement of the qualification? If you have had your certificate commercially endorsed (you have provided a medical fitness report and proof of a sea survival course) then yes, this endorsement will expire in five years from date of issue. In order to revalidate, the RYA asks for sight of a new medical fitness report and an overview of your commercial activites over the five years. This ensures that a/ you are still fit and healthy for a commercial role at sea and b/ you are using the endorsement for its correct purpose. You mention a Certificate of Operation of Pleasure Craft, I think this is your ICC? Again, the RYA checks your details after five years, for things like change of address, change of photograph, all in an effort to keep your records up to date. You DO NOT have to re-do the course, it is a simple paperwork procedure. I run an RYA training centre in Palma de Mallorca and I deal with the RYA Certification Department on a weekly basis and find them efficient in all matters. It is a shame you experienced less than satisfactory service from them. My school is Aigua Sea School in Palma; if you need any assistance relating to any RYA qualifications and certification, please do not hesitate to contact me. Look online for aiguaseaschool.com I hope you find this feedback of use.
cancook
Posted: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:01 PM
Joined: 26/09/2008
Posts: 8


Thanks for your replies. Yes, I did the Powerboat Level 2, but when I sent away for the permanent licence to the RYA (no medical fitness certain required, not commercial) they sent me a pleasure craft license with an expiry in 5 years. I emailed the RYA directly to clarify why this expires in five years (since it took 1.5 just to get it in the first place) and the email response was that they are following the rules of the MCA for certain European flag states so therefore, I must redo the course in 5 years. They did not make it sound like all I had to do was verify address and photo. This does not make sense compared to what you have just written,Linda. I will email you directly.
Anonymous
Posted: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:36 PM
Now that you have the permanent certificate, feel free to wipe your back side with it. That's about what it is worth. The RYA training certs are a nice mechanism for providing basic knowledge on recreational boats around the UK, but that's it. The RYA is trying to get its piece of the money pie. These yachting courses are well below the MINIMUM standards of STCW, but yet have an MCA endorsement for use on commercial yachts. How is that possible?
Alfrmoz
Posted: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:11 PM
Joined: 22/09/2011
Posts: 1


In reading this thread I had a question of my own in mind. I did a IYT STCW and a IYT Deckhand course and was wondering about the difference between IYT and RYA when it comes to Yachtmaster level. It seems that RYA gets alot more coverage and ackowlegement from agencies websites whilst IYT seems to do a more comprehensive course in my opinion (comparing the course two outlines). My question is how do the two compare in the industry as far as recognition long term as my understanding is (I could be wrong) that the MCA commissioned the IYT for training in the superyacht industry.
Linda @ Aigua Sea School
Posted: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:19 AM
Joined: 03/06/2011
Posts: 9


Both IYT and RYA are training providers, working with the MCA to ensure the practical and theory courses are relevant in the MCA world. My school is an RYA school. I did have a choice but I chose RYA as it is more recognised 'worldwide' and more proactive in working with the MCA. Once you choose a route to take, either IYT or RYA, you have to stick with it. By this I mean that if you have an IYT Yachtmaster Offshore then take an RYA Ocean course, the Ocean title cannot 'sit' on your IYT Yachtmaster. However, a practical assessment through the RYA will secure you your Yachtmaster Offshore, and I guess vice versa. Alarm bells started ringing for me when the MCA would not accept an IYT radio licence. Why? Surely the standards of training are the same? They are not. It appears to me that the RYA are more in line with the MCA. Yes I dun an RYA training centre but that was my choice, then and now. If you would like to contact me through the school in Palma de Mallorca I will be happy to answer any further questions.
Chris Taylor - IYT Worldwide
Posted: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 9:04 PM
Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 28


Various Points about the questions raised

IYT Worldwide Radio course was put in to the Master of Yachts Limited (Formerly Yachtmaster, changed because the RYA registered the generic word Yachtmaster in the UK and Europe) to cover the situation in the USA where non US Citizens could not get a US FCC License. The MCA approved the radio course as a competency as part of the MOY but it is not a license and IYT will accept most state issued radio licenses in lieu.

The radio course is also part of the IYT Worldwide Small Powerboat and RIB Course as it is MCA recognised and used professionally.

Under STCW Convention all certificates of competence have to be revalidated every 5 years and as a professional Certification body we are bound by the convention as is the MCA and USCG etc.

Some of the differences between the IYT Worldwide MOY and RYA Yachtmaster include,
IYT has a full Quality Management System (ISO 9001 2008) covering its courses and schools, the RYA does not
IYT Worldwide MOY was developed by professionals for professionals and its MOY courses, Coastal, Limited and Unlimited certificates are all wholly commercial and DO NOT need endorsing as the RYA YM Courses do.
Our examiners are all professional seafarers as well as yachtsmen/women
We have included in the MOY Course,  STCW Training, Business and Law Components as well as some Stability, Construction and we are looking at Bridge Management being included, not so the RYA
Everyone has to take all parts of the course and no one can challenge the exams which you can do with the RYA

The MCA recognises the IYT Programme as do other administrations some of which do not recognise the RYA YM, which is inherently recreational.  I dispute whether the RYA is more recognised worldwide, they certainly have more providers but the output quality varies significantly as there is no quality control.

IYT worldwide has several members on the MCA Yacht Qualifications panel the RYA has none, begging the question about the last writer stating the RYA is more proactive with the MCA.

If anyone wishes to contact me direct for further information, christ@iytworld.com






Rusty Wrench
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 9:28 AM
Joined: 21/09/2010
Posts: 207


Agreed with Chris(t) from IYT World;

RYA is for recreational individuals wishing to learn how to operate a small private vessel in a safe manner.  


Richard Falk
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 10:23 AM
Joined: 24/11/2011
Posts: 2


I do not usually respond to forums on behalf of the RYA as the qyuality of RYA training and qualifications generally speaks well for itself. However, having been forwarded a link to this post by numerous people who were irrate at some of the significant inaccuracies and misrepresentations on this thread I felt appropiate to respond. 1) In response to the initial post by "cancook" - I received a query by email from "cancook" at 1624 BST on the 15th of November this year - the same day the initial Dockwalk post was made. I responded at 1711 the same day. "Cancook" sent a subsequent email at 1857 and I responded to that at 0812 on the morning of the 16th of November. Enquiries to the RYA are generally responded to within 8 working hours. With regards the issue raised by "cancook" - no RYA qualification has an expiry date. RYA qualifications are valid for life. Some RYA qualifications can be "commercially endorsed". Such endorsements are valid for 5 years to enable us to ensure that the idnividual is a) medically fit to command a vessel and b) has remained current in their practical skills within the industry. With regards "cancook's" certificate - this was actually an "ICC" (International Certificate of Competence) which is a statement of competence issued by the RYA on behalf of and under the authority of the MCA. The ICC has 5 years vaidity - again so that the details of the candidate can be kept current as well as providing the RYA with the ability to update the certificates at appropriate intervals. Turnaround time from the RYA for the issue of an ICC is normally around 10 working days, but there is a "fastrack" service available for an additional fee. 2) With regards the claims by Mr Chris Taylor of IYT Worldwide - * The RYA carries out inspections of its more than 1,900 practical training centres every year, to include inspections of the centre itself and the vessels in use to ensure they are at the required standard (MCA coded or equivalent) - IYT does not. * The RYA requires each of its practical instructors to attend a 2 day update every 5 years to ensure they are still competent and to update on changes within the RYA scheme and the industry in general - IYT does not. * RYA provides the same level of practical and theoretical training training to both recreational and potential commercial sailors. Skippering a vessel in terms of "hard skills" is the same regardless of whether the user has a paying passenger on board or not. The requirements for navigation, engine knowledge and ability to manouevre the vessel safely do not decrease simply because a canididate may not be receiveing payment for doing so. However, the RYA scheme does require the candidate to demonstrate medical fitness, competency in emergency procedures in sea survival and as of April 2012 candidates for commercial endorsement will also need to undertake a brief online course that will educate them in the specific responsibilities for masters of commercial vessels. This initiative has been applauded by the MCA and the industry in general and is the first of its type within the maritime industry. * RYA examiners are all experienced, marine professionals with years of experience in whichever discipline they are examining. They are appointed under the authority of the MCA / RYA Yachtmaster Qualification Panel and undergo specific training in the examination process as well as being required to update every 5 years in a similar manner to RYA instructors. * ALL RYA examinations are carried out independant of the school at which training may have been conducted thus avoiding any conflict of interest. IYT examinations can be carried out by personnel from within the school where training has been conducted. * There is an appeal process for RYA examinations. Any credible assessment process will have as a part of its structure a process for appeal. Any appeal against an exam outcome is sent to the RYA Chief Examiner and is then submitted to the MCA / RYA Yachtmaster Qualification Panel for consideration. Due to the level of professionalism of RYA examiners we receive on average around 5 appeals per year. To put this in context we conduct more than 5,000 exams for certificates of competence each year. There is also a quality assurance process run by an external market research company to survey a significant portion of all exam candidates as to their experience with the RYA examiner. This is reported on monthly. * There may be some administrations that recognise IYT qualifications but not RYA qualifications. To date I am yet to hear of one other than in statements by IYT. A glance at the IYT website will suggest wide recognition across many countries. When one looks more closely however one will see that the various countries listed are in some cases states and in others "home countries" of the UK which fall under the auspices of the MCA. * Finally, with regards membership of the Yacht Qualification Panel the RYA was indeed present at this years panel meeting held in the UK in September. In addition to Craig Burton (RYA Chief Instructor, Cruising) there were representatives from 7 RYA recognised training centres. Conversely, there were representatives from only two IYT training centres and no representatives from IYT Worldwide. There is no question that there are differences between the RYA and IYT training schemes and qualifications. The RYA has been around for well over 100 years and trains almost 200,000 people in 45 countries every year in a variety of disciplines. It is a not for profit organisation with its emphasis on educating people on how to safely go boating either commercially or recreationally. It continues to grow in popularity and is without question the most widely recognised international provider of on water training. Conversely IYT is a commercial business. The RYA is not in the business of criticizing other organisations. We provide quality training and qualification frameworks that we are proud of and that are well recognized around the world. We believe that the strongest endorsement we can possibly have is the almost 200,000 people who choose to undertake training with us each year and the ever increasing number of training centres around the world who choose to apply for RYA Training Centre recognition. As always if you have any questions about RYA training or qualifications do not hesitate to contact one of the 15 staff in our training department on +442380604100. Best wishes, Richard Falk RYA Training Manager and Chief Examiner
Rusty Wrench
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 10:46 AM
Joined: 21/09/2010
Posts: 207


Mr Falk, please correct me if I am wrong, but the RYA only provides recreational courses which must be endorsed by Flag State for professional employment on private or commercial yachts. Also, it seems the RYA does not offer any engineering courses, I wonder why.

RYA 'certificates' do not expire after five years because they are not accepted by IMO under STCW regulations.

  


Richard Falk
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 1:44 PM
Joined: 24/11/2011
Posts: 2


In response to Rusty Wrench - The RYA provides training and a qualification framework relevant to vessels under 200 gross tonnes. In the event that an individual wishes to use any of these qualifications commercially they must be endorsed (by the RYA / MCA) for this purpose. It is up to each flag state whether they choose to accept the certficates of competence on vessels under their flag. The RYA does not offer courses in engineering. With more than 70 courses on offer across the various range of disciplines in which we train there is a limit to what we are able to cover. Unless we can provide the appropriate level of expertise we will not endeavour to offer training in that area. Many individual RYA schools do offer STCW and engineering qualifications.
Anonymous
Posted: Saturday, January 21, 2012 9:14 PM
Richard a point I'd like to raise. The IYT are happy for a School to have dual recognition ie IYT and RYA as they feel the courses would be chosen by the student on their own merit, however, the RYA will not allow this indeed in the term you issue to school it state along the lines of " you cannot offer like for like courses from other training organisations". Surely the RYA should take the stance to let their courses be chosen on merit your thoughts. RYA certs are notorious for going missing when being sent abroad, before you refute I ran an RYA school for many years and spent a lot of time chasing lost certification. So cancook you are not alone.... I suppose training 200,000 student per year thing are bound to go astray... In my experience looking at the IYT and the RYA, the IYT are by far a more professional and approachable organisation who take your views into account and don't simply brush it off with the mightier than thou attitude. In respect to Alfmoz's post my belief the difference simple, IYT YM cert are not for commercial use, you must sit a separate Master of Yachts Course. The RYA you sit a YM course and then apply for a commercial endorsement which used to be granted as long as your application was accompanied by an ML5 medical, basic sea survival and a first aid cert. However I believe they are taking or indeed have took the IYT stance of STCW.
 
 Average 0 out of 5